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Re: Potentially Restoring Illegally Griefed Bases
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:02 pm
by MutualistManiac
also, I nominate myself for that committee, if self-nomination is how that is going to work out.
Re: Potentially Restoring Illegally Griefed Bases
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:24 pm
by TonTheKidRS
MutualistManiac wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:00 pm
The contentious part of this, however, is the reversal of bases griefed by duping as I think strawman does not support that.
I think the reason Strawman doesnt support this aspect of it is that he figures if a base was found legitimately (meaning if the coords are leaked they can be used), then the person uses duped TNT to blow it up, if it got restored, anyone with the coords could then go and grief it anyway. Obviously that is an extreme edge case, and unlikely to happen. I can see where he is going with this reasoning, although I don't think I agree with it.
Re: Potentially Restoring Illegally Griefed Bases
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:30 pm
by MutualistManiac
TonTheKidRS wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:24 pm
MutualistManiac wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:00 pm
The contentious part of this, however, is the reversal of bases griefed by duping as I think strawman does not support that.
I think the reason Strawman doesnt support this aspect of it is that he figures if a base was found legitimately (meaning if the coords are leaked they can be used), then the person uses duped TNT to blow it up, if it got restored, anyone with the coords could then go and grief it anyway. Obviously that is an extreme edge case, and unlikely to happen. I can see where he is going with this reasoning, although I don't think I agree with it.
The fact that griefing is inevitable is a non-sequitur. Griefing is ALWAYS inevitable on simpvp. We want LEGIT griefing, not illegal griefing.
Re: Potentially Restoring Illegally Griefed Bases
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:04 am
by Burger
MutualistManiac wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:00 pm
I support this as well. In each case, one of these categories would need to be proven to have occurred in the grief for it to be eligible for reversal. For example, if we knew someone duped pickaxes it would not then follow that they used those pickaxes to grief a given base. That would be a separate claim requiring its own proof. The contentious part of this, however, is the reversal of bases griefed by duping as I think strawman does not support that. Most do support it though.
Yeah the third point is the one I'm least enthusiastic about, I imagine it would only be used if specifically the TNT was duped, like with Phrasings. That's rare enough to probably not worry about for a long time. Debating whether a base should be restored because the dirt to form a lava cast was duped is retarded, and will never happen anyway.
Re: Potentially Restoring Illegally Griefed Bases
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:05 am
by KoriJenkins
Bases griefed by duping should be included for the simple reason that griefing is a major action. It's not meant to be "easy" by any means. Using an enormous supply of TNT to level an enemy's base is usually required, and that usually takes time to acquire.
Duping effectively makes griefs easy and cheap and undeserved.
Re: Potentially Restoring Illegally Griefed Bases
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:14 am
by MutualistManiac
KoriJenkins wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:05 am
Bases griefed by duping should be included for the simple reason that griefing is a major action. It's not meant to be "easy" by any means. Using an enormous supply of TNT to level an enemy's base is usually required, and that usually takes time to acquire.
Duping effectively makes griefs easy and cheap and undeserved.
absolutely true, and all those concerns about duping, IE that it will be hard to determine, are fixed by simply having a burden of proof that must be met. My only contention was that EVEN IF a duper was using known coords, and was going to leak them when they were jailed, this does not mean that the base should not be restored because the spirit of the rule is to prevent illegal actions from having effects, and that grief would be an effect on the server. YES, it will be griefed later, but so will most other bases on the server, the point is not the end being achieved, but that it is not being done by illegal means.
Re: Potentially Restoring Illegally Griefed Bases
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:26 am
by KoriJenkins
I think we have the basic understanding of the policy down as it should go into effect initially then. Now it just falls to writing an official rule.
Something like this.
"If a base is griefed by a player proven to have x-rayed to find it, obtained the coordinates through illegal methods, or used illegally obtained griefing supplies, the base is eligible to be restored to its ungriefed state (minus items) if requested by the occupants within 80 days."
The 80 days applies to the fact that server block logs only go back 90 days, making it impossible to restore a grief from before 90 days ago. 10 days for an investigation and decision to be made by the admin team is more than fair.
There will undoubtedly be gray areas. This thread can be where future incidents are discussed if they don't directly fall under the 3 current criteria.
Already I've thought of one gray area: A person finds or unknowingly buys duped materials.
Still, we can sit around all year thinking of hypotheticals. Better to wait until they actually play out to discuss them.
If we're all in agreement on the rule as written above, I can ask Yukar about it.
Re: Potentially Restoring Illegally Griefed Bases
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:44 am
by MutualistManiac
KoriJenkins wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:26 am
I think we have the basic understanding of the policy down as it should go into effect initially then. Now it just falls to writing an official rule.
Something like this.
"If a base is griefed by a player proven to have x-rayed to find it, obtained the coordinates through illegal methods, or used illegally obtained griefing supplies, the base is eligible to be restored to its ungriefed state (minus items) if requested by the occupants within 80 days."
The 80 days applies to the fact that server block logs only go back 90 days, making it impossible to restore a grief from before 90 days ago. 10 days for an investigation and decision to be made by the admin team is more than fair.
There will undoubtedly be gray areas. This thread can be where future incidents are discussed if they don't directly fall under the 3 current criteria.
Already I've thought of one gray area: A person finds or unknowingly buys duped materials.
Still, we can sit around all year thinking of hypotheticals. Better to wait until they actually play out to discuss them.
If we're all in agreement on the rule as written above, I can ask Yukar about it.
I sign off on the rule above.
I think that most "gray areas" would be worn down by the burden of proof as this rule stipulates that things must be "proven". As far as I know, using duped items is a jailable offense, I think the gray area of if they knew they were duped or not is just a regular gray area in the other server rules as well. If it is the case that you can be jailed for unknowingly using duped items, then all bases known to have been affected by this should be eligible, if not then we have a real head-scratcher on our hands. I would say that the duped items should be removed, and the base restored, but the player allowed to play still, but that is just if they are not banned for using duped stuff without knowledge.
Re: Potentially Restoring Illegally Griefed Bases
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:52 am
by Burger
That's good, go ahead and ask Yukar. And yeah there are a million hypotheticals and different caveats we could think about, but they can be dealt with if they happen.
edit: actually one thing, if an old historic base was griefed illegally (can't think of any examples, but some famous underground base being xrayed for example), it should still be restored even if the occupants are no longer active imo
Re: Potentially Restoring Illegally Griefed Bases
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:04 am
by KoriJenkins
Burger wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:52 am
That's good, go ahead and ask Yukar. And yeah there are a million hypotheticals and different caveats we could think about, but they can be dealt with if they happen.
edit: actually one thing, if an old historic base was griefed illegally (can't think of any examples, but some famous underground base being xrayed for example), it should still be restored even if the occupants are no longer active imo
Agree. I'd just leave that specific one up to admin discretion if I'm being honest.