TNT Duping and the Flawed Thinking Behind Removing it

[KoriJenkins]

I'll go on record right now as stating that I'm probably very unaffected by this issue. I never had farms that used TNT duping and only ever used it for the bombers during the First and Second Sieges. The two things that used it at Void City were a concrete machine and a cobblestone generator, both of which are easily replaced.

As we all know TNT duping was infamously disabled on the server at the end of 2020 when the server updated to 1.16.4. It wasn't a popular decision at all, and was subject to many heated debates on discord, the forums, in-game chat, and presidential debates.

The reasons for its removal go as follows: it was a "glitch" and an unintended game mechanic, it was overpowered, it was causing lag. I'll break down each one of these reasons starting with the first.

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TNT Duping is not a glitch or an unintended game mechanic. Mojang is well aware of its existence and has intentionally left it in the game to fill a role they're unable to provide. This is very easy to prove with a quote from sliced_lime, a Mojang developer, who said "We're a fair ways off from that. While fishing farms and 0-tick farms were pure exploits that didn't need replacements (lily pads aside), TNT dupers fill a slot in the game that the intended game mechanics still cannot." Essentially what he's saying is TNT dupers are something they leave in intentionally because of the lack of alternatives. The context behind this response can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comm ... s/fkv2yyv/

The notion that it is overpowered is also flawed. TNT Duping, as sliced_lime put, fills a slot in the game. It's part of technical Minecraft. Strawman tells me that farms have always been a big part of the server. Why would we want to neuter that? The context by which it's overpowered was that it was too good for griefing, used in too many farms, and enabled mass production of resources. These are all true. You know what else is used in too many farms? Budded pistons. You know what else is too good for griefing? Lavacasting. Mass production of resources? Villager trading halls. What's also being completely ignored is that TNT duping was also a useful tool for ungriefing as well. The SKRT was able to remove millions of blocks of cobblestone with their dupers at Spawn. With its removal, lavacasting was made that much more powerful.

It causes lag. Yeah, it does. TNT duping caused a fair amount of lag when run. But what I fail to understand is the selective removal of things that cause lag. Elytra launchers are banned, but entity cramming in farms isn't. TNT dupers are banned but farms that break Minecraft and produce more resources than the overpowered TNT dupers did are allowed. Why is CreaPat's base off-limits to any form of intervention, even simply asking her to make some changes, yet YMP's egg farm base was leaked by Yukar? There should be more consistency, either address lag across the board, or don't.

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There are two flaws I found with the decision making behind the removal. I'll start with the discord vote that was held.

One would be the vote done in discord prior to removal. DakkaDok, when he was still an admin, polled the community for thoughts about removing it. The result was an 83-16 vote to keep it. Of the players who voted to remove it, the only ones who are active are Sengorn (who I'll address in a moment), Pip, Yukar, and Crackyjoe. Cavehoe voted to remove it but is banned, Dakka has quit, and the rest are names I don't recognize as active players, though they might have different discord names. The same certainly applies to the votes for, but the point I'm making is that this "vote" was a mandate to keep it and it was ignored.

Addressing Sengorn, he began campaigning for the removal of TNT Duping after he had created a large perimeter for his own use with TNT duping. His zeal for its removal comes off more as a desire to give himself an advantage over others rather than a legitimate grievance with the thing itself.

Why even hold this vote? What was the purpose of gauging community support for something? I've been told with the BRP that it wouldn't be implemented without community support. Why is that then ignored completely with TNT duping?

I'm not saying that the community should be listened to 100% of the time. Some dumb ideas like removing /portal, removing /world, removing events, banning AntHand for something he had permission to do, and others have come from it recently. However I am saying that regarding gameplay, removal of a feature should at least warrant an acknowledgement of the opinion of the community, which was overwhelmingly against removal.

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The other issue with the removal: the makeup of the admin team

It seems like a more bizarre area to focus on. At the time the admins were Yukarion, MisterStrawman, DakkaDok, and ostrich1414. NONE of them were impacted by the decision to remove it at all. Yukarion doesn't play survival Minecraft on Sim. MisterStrawman wasn't active. DakkaDok doesn't use TNT dupers in his farms. ostrich1414 primarily basehunts and makes city bases, and isn't known for his skill at building farms.

Would you expect me to be able to make decisions about who should be promoted in the Church of Francis without being in it? How does it make sense for a group of 4 players who spend most of their time afk, inactive, spectating other players, or on the events map to decide what happens regarding the Survival element of the server? How is Yukarion qualified to say "this is overpowered, this is bad" when he doesn't play survival or use TNT dupers at all? Or DakkaDok? Or Strawman? Or even ostrich1414?

I'm certain the decision wasn't unanimous, I don't have access to that information. My loose assumption is that Dakka and Yukar wanted it removed, ost didn't, and Strawman didn't vote. In fact, ostrich might've told me that once.

It's very easy to say "I want this removed because of X" when you aren't impacted by the removal of it.

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For the majority of the server, many of whom don't have as much time to play as people like me or ostrich, TNT duping was a lifesaver that allowed them to spend more time interacting with others or building their base. Of course there are problems with it, and reasons it shouldn't be allowed, but I believe those reasons are far outweighed by the benefits of having it.

tldr; TNT duping shouldn't have been removed given the issues with the arguments to remove it, the people who made the decision, and the community vote that overwhelmingly wanted to keep it.

EDIT:According to clipchip the vote was 2 for and 2 against with Yukar ultimately deciding to remove it. Take that with a grain of salt, we all know clip isn't exactly... in a nice mood right now.

[Anthand]

*actively participates in changing and removing game mechanics*

Wait nooooo you can't just arbitrarily remove the overpowered unintended game mechanics that I want! restore it now!!!!!!

[KoriJenkins]

*actively participates in changing and removing game mechanics*

Wait nooooo you can't just arbitrarily remove the overpowered unintended game mechanics that I want! restore it now!!!!!!

What you did would fall under what the Mojang dev described as "exploits" lol

[Anthand]

No more of an exploit than gold farming :P

[Anthand]

Do you think that this topic hasn't been mentioned to Yukarion before though? It's presumptuous of you to think that this additional complaint will actually do something lmao

[KoriJenkins]

Do you think that this topic hasn't been mentioned to Yukarion before though? It's presumptuous of you to think that this additional complaint will actually do something lmao

Blah blah blah

The topic has been mentioned. People have whined and bitched at him in chat. Nobody has ever bothered to make a well articulated argument against removal on the forums. Not once. There might be one post that says "hey this is really dumb and guys it sucks so lets not take it out" or something, but nothing that goes point by point.

Go be mad somewhere else.

[Anthand]

I sincerely hope that this attempt at convincing Yukarion works, though. The removal of TnT duping was near the start of the long chain of poor decisions which led to the current horrendous state of simpvp. But, that being said, given the wealth of recent server changes, I seriously doubt that Yukarion values well-reasoned arguments.

[KoriJenkins]

I sincerely hope that this attempt at convincing Yukarion works, though. The removal of TnT duping was near the start of the long chain of poor decisions which led to the current horrendous state of simpvp. But, that being said, given the wealth of recent server changes, I seriously doubt that Yukarion values well-reasoned arguments.

I'm not even really trying to convince him to bring it back. This is a forum post about the removal and why I don't agree with it. If he wants to bring it back afterwards, great! I'd be glad if he did. If he doesn't, that's fine too. I'm not affected, but I know a lot of players are genuinely unhappy about it.

[Burger]

I made a post before it was disabled. It isn't being re-enabled. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2724

[KoriJenkins]

I made a post before it was disabled. It isn't being re-enabled. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2724

Consider it a response post to Dakka's arguments in that thread.