Gonna bump this until Yukar responds or deletes the thread because I'd love an answer as to how an 83-16 vote (possibly the most one-sided vote on anything in server history) as well as a split admin vote (with the 2 people who voted to remove it never using it) warranted removal.
The time of the vote was arbitrary. If the admins voted today it would be 3-1 in favor of bringing it back.
TNT Duping and the Flawed Thinking Behind Removing it
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KoriJenkins
- in iron armor
- Posts: 194
- Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:09 am
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MisterStrawman
- Donator
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:24 pm
Re: TNT Duping and the Flawed Thinking Behind Removing it
My official opinion on this is that we should keep it enabled until it is patched in the official release, but I'm very on-the-fence about it, so rather than advocate for one position or the other, I'm going to make a case for both sides.
Pro enabling tnt duping:
-The player base is clearly in favor of it.
To this point, we have the discord poll in which apparently 99 people votes, and the result was 83-16 in favor of enabling tnt duping. Also, the old thread on this topic was something like 24-4 in favor of as well (86%-14%, so pretty close to the same proportion even).
-It "fills a slot in the game".
Many farms become easier, or even feasible with tnt duping enabled, as does removing lavacast griefing. Players had already taken the time to make farms that rely on this, and it usually isn't good when we make something that works stop working (although mojang does this all the time). Quite frankly I think we'd be better off for it if players finished removing the lavacasts around spawn and snowfrog castle for example. It would take too long to be worth it otherwise.
-The spirit of simpvp is to encourage more player freedom.
This isn't too dissimilar from the first point, in that is the developers decided it was something good to be left in the game (possibly to be later replaced, as seemed to be hinted at), then we might be best leaving it alone.
Pro disabling tnt duping:
-This server isn't a democracy, and most of the discord votes are dubious.
Not much else to be said here, if we had a vote to give everyone creative mode, it would probably win.
-It actually is a glitch.
Just because a mojang developer said they weren't removing it yet doesn't mean it was intended. Minecraft has some weird physics, but I think it's a far stretch to say being able to dupe anything is "intended". I also don't believe it was put in the game on purpose, but was rather an exploit that was very popular and useful upon its discovery. It will probably also likely lead to something like it being implemented in the official release in the future, but it's pretty obvious that it's a glitch.
-It's too convenient.
I think with elytras/rockets, no mobs at spawn, melon farms, phantom commands, etc that have either been implemented by the official release, or by just this server, the game is a bit too easy. In survival minecraft, I think there needs to be some struggle, otherwise why not just play creative? Where the balancing point is on this is pretty subjective, but my person opinion is that we're way on the too easy side.
So why am I "on the fence" now, when I was completely for it last year? There was plenty of warning given that TNT duping would be removed, and it had been delayed on several occasions. We've now gone some time without it, and the need for it doesn't seem to be that great (i.e. the game is still quite playable without it). On some level decisions have to be made about things, and while I didn't agree with it, I had accepted it. If we're constantly second-guessing everything that's decided on here, it becomes harder to be consistent, and the playing environment becomes unstable and unpredictable (this argument would've been used in reverse when the initial decision was made). Changing too much in some sense makes us less simpvp, and sometimes the answer just has to be no even when people are complaining. Therefore we should get rid of the melon farm.
Pro enabling tnt duping:
-The player base is clearly in favor of it.
To this point, we have the discord poll in which apparently 99 people votes, and the result was 83-16 in favor of enabling tnt duping. Also, the old thread on this topic was something like 24-4 in favor of as well (86%-14%, so pretty close to the same proportion even).
-It "fills a slot in the game".
Many farms become easier, or even feasible with tnt duping enabled, as does removing lavacast griefing. Players had already taken the time to make farms that rely on this, and it usually isn't good when we make something that works stop working (although mojang does this all the time). Quite frankly I think we'd be better off for it if players finished removing the lavacasts around spawn and snowfrog castle for example. It would take too long to be worth it otherwise.
-The spirit of simpvp is to encourage more player freedom.
This isn't too dissimilar from the first point, in that is the developers decided it was something good to be left in the game (possibly to be later replaced, as seemed to be hinted at), then we might be best leaving it alone.
Pro disabling tnt duping:
-This server isn't a democracy, and most of the discord votes are dubious.
Not much else to be said here, if we had a vote to give everyone creative mode, it would probably win.
-It actually is a glitch.
Just because a mojang developer said they weren't removing it yet doesn't mean it was intended. Minecraft has some weird physics, but I think it's a far stretch to say being able to dupe anything is "intended". I also don't believe it was put in the game on purpose, but was rather an exploit that was very popular and useful upon its discovery. It will probably also likely lead to something like it being implemented in the official release in the future, but it's pretty obvious that it's a glitch.
-It's too convenient.
I think with elytras/rockets, no mobs at spawn, melon farms, phantom commands, etc that have either been implemented by the official release, or by just this server, the game is a bit too easy. In survival minecraft, I think there needs to be some struggle, otherwise why not just play creative? Where the balancing point is on this is pretty subjective, but my person opinion is that we're way on the too easy side.
So why am I "on the fence" now, when I was completely for it last year? There was plenty of warning given that TNT duping would be removed, and it had been delayed on several occasions. We've now gone some time without it, and the need for it doesn't seem to be that great (i.e. the game is still quite playable without it). On some level decisions have to be made about things, and while I didn't agree with it, I had accepted it. If we're constantly second-guessing everything that's decided on here, it becomes harder to be consistent, and the playing environment becomes unstable and unpredictable (this argument would've been used in reverse when the initial decision was made). Changing too much in some sense makes us less simpvp, and sometimes the answer just has to be no even when people are complaining. Therefore we should get rid of the melon farm.
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KoriJenkins
- in iron armor
- Posts: 194
- Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:09 am
Re: TNT Duping and the Flawed Thinking Behind Removing it
If I had a dollar for every time I've heard "this isn't a democracy..."
Thank God it's not. If it were there'd be no /world, no /portals, and players would be routinely banned because of the outrage mob. I'm more bothered by the idea of having a vote at all to "gauge community support" if the vote was pointless anyway. What would the vote have had to be to result in TNT duping remaining? 200-1? 500-0?
The lack of apparent need for TNT duping might seem real but it's not. Consider that tree farms, mushroom stem farms, cobble farms, concrete machines, hell even the new nether mushroom farm things use TNT duping as major mechanics. That's several fairly important farms just neutered completely, hundreds of hours of work created for players. Gonna leave unstated the fact that there's certainly more than I listed, but those are just the ones off the top of my head.
If we're too much on the easy side there are ways to change that which don't impact endgame farms imo. Removing the protected zone at Spawn is one, the melon farm is another, allowing mobs to Spawn near the Spawn platform as well. You could even take the Burger_Malone approach; remove /world and force new players to suffer to acquire resources and establish themselves.
But I'm not going to be the one to make more forum posts. I'm not keen on writing another essay for Yukar to ignore it because he doesn't agree. Getting a response of any kind from him would have been nice, he's been really good about it on my other posts. Hell, he could just tell me to eat dick and at least that would be acknowledgement that the post was read (probably).
I don't wanna come off as though I'm complaining constantly. I'm not really that anti-Sim or anti-admin, I simply want Sim to be as good as it can, hence the desire for a donation page, the removal of toxic players who break rules, protections for bases that are taken out illegally, or the inclusion of glitches that became features. I don't think that's a ridiculous thing to want for someone who has probably sunk over 2600 non-afk hours into the server.
Thank God it's not. If it were there'd be no /world, no /portals, and players would be routinely banned because of the outrage mob. I'm more bothered by the idea of having a vote at all to "gauge community support" if the vote was pointless anyway. What would the vote have had to be to result in TNT duping remaining? 200-1? 500-0?
The lack of apparent need for TNT duping might seem real but it's not. Consider that tree farms, mushroom stem farms, cobble farms, concrete machines, hell even the new nether mushroom farm things use TNT duping as major mechanics. That's several fairly important farms just neutered completely, hundreds of hours of work created for players. Gonna leave unstated the fact that there's certainly more than I listed, but those are just the ones off the top of my head.
If we're too much on the easy side there are ways to change that which don't impact endgame farms imo. Removing the protected zone at Spawn is one, the melon farm is another, allowing mobs to Spawn near the Spawn platform as well. You could even take the Burger_Malone approach; remove /world and force new players to suffer to acquire resources and establish themselves.
But I'm not going to be the one to make more forum posts. I'm not keen on writing another essay for Yukar to ignore it because he doesn't agree. Getting a response of any kind from him would have been nice, he's been really good about it on my other posts. Hell, he could just tell me to eat dick and at least that would be acknowledgement that the post was read (probably).
I don't wanna come off as though I'm complaining constantly. I'm not really that anti-Sim or anti-admin, I simply want Sim to be as good as it can, hence the desire for a donation page, the removal of toxic players who break rules, protections for bases that are taken out illegally, or the inclusion of glitches that became features. I don't think that's a ridiculous thing to want for someone who has probably sunk over 2600 non-afk hours into the server.