Allow the clay exploit

[Burger]

While I was all for the RNG clay diamond-finding exploit being bannable at the time, I've since had a change of heart. My suggestion is as follows

• make the clay exploit legal

• change the /portals recipe to compensate for the devaluation of diamonds

Diamonds are quite literally worthless for everything other than portals and currency. They aren't used for crafting, since you can get full diamond kit from villagers for absurdly cheap. Therefore, there isn't any harm in letting people use this particular RNG exploit to find more diamonds. RNG exploits for profit are already common in the game, this one is just particularly reliable.

It's also sad seeing honest, legit players get banned for an entire year because they had no way of knowing that this method was illegal.

Since diamonds will be even easier to attain, the /portals recipe should be changed. I suggest 2 ancient debris instead of 1diamond+1lapis. Lapis is basically a "filler" block since it's no issue at all to find, and finding 2 ancient debris is about equal difficulty as finding 9 diamonds.

I also expect people would *actually* switch to netherite as a currency, but probably not.


Alternate suggestion: stop banning good legit people for not knowing that this wasn't allowed. destroy their diamonds and make it clearer to new players tho

[MoWobbler]

I'll give my opinion on this. Your reason for allowing this is that it wouldn't cause any harm. I would argue that it would cause harm because it would devalue diamonds. It could also make it harder to differentiate between an xrayer and someone using this exploit. I feel like it's pretty clear that this isn't allowed if you read the rules on the wiki, but it's not as clear in the /rules command. I think it would be better if we stated that exploits aren't allowed in the rules.

[KoriJenkins]

Whoever got banned absolutely had a way to know this method was illegal. It's on the wiki announcements that it's not allowed. They also could've asked before trying to use a clear exploit to mine diamonds.

One problem with your alternate suggestion is that people are dishonest. It's very easy to pretend after the fact to not know something wasn't allowed.

[Burger]

I'll give my opinion on this. Your reason for allowing this is that it wouldn't cause any harm. I would argue that it would cause harm because it would devalue diamonds. It could also make it harder to differentiate between an xrayer and someone using this exploit. I feel like it's pretty clear that this isn't allowed if you read the rules on the wiki, but it's not as clear in the /rules command. I think it would be better if we stated that exploits aren't allowed in the rules.

I don't think diamond inflation is a bad thing tbh (as long as /portals are also changed). Traded items might just become more expensive, or people will switch to netherite, which isn't a bad thing. I also think it's pretty easy to distinguish this and x-ray, since all people do with this exploit is mine straight down at specific points in a swamp, while x-rayers tunnel erratically towards diamonds.

Whoever got banned absolutely had a way to know this method was illegal. It's on the wiki announcements that it's not allowed. They also could've asked before trying to use a clear exploit to mine diamonds.

One problem with your alternate suggestion is that people are dishonest. It's very easy to pretend after the fact to not know something wasn't allowed.

I don't think new players should be expected to scour the wiki (which they likely don't even know exists) for an indication of whether this exploit is allowed. I agree they should've asked, but I can totally empathise with them for naturally assuming that a completely vanilla, very well-known RNG trick would be allowed on a server where the only rule is no cheating.

As for people lying when caught, I don't think that's a big deal. Remove all their diamonds and make it clear that they'll be banned if they do it again.

[Yukar9]

In my opinion this is very clear cut glitch abuse. As sad as it may be for people to get banned over this, if someone automatically assumes this is okay to exploit, I have to wonder what other exploits they might also just assume are okay.

We had an announcement on login that this was not allowed back when the exploit was new. It'd probably be annoying to have the announcement on permanently though (and this exploit can never be patched in already generated terrain, so that really would be forever.) Maybe we could add some signs at spawn or something.

[Burger]

In my opinion this is very clear cut glitch abuse. As sad as it may be for people to get banned over this, if someone automatically assumes this is okay to exploit, I have to wonder what other exploits they might also just assume are okay.

We had an announcement on login that this was not allowed back when the exploit was new. It'd probably be annoying to have the announcement on permanently though (and this exploit can never be patched in already generated terrain, so that really would be forever.) Maybe we could add some signs at spawn or something.

I think mentioning RNG exploits in Rule 2 in /rules should be sufficient. I'd also urge you to be lenient on the people who were already jailed for this, maybe reduce their sentence from an entire year.

[KoriJenkins]

In my opinion this is very clear cut glitch abuse. As sad as it may be for people to get banned over this, if someone automatically assumes this is okay to exploit, I have to wonder what other exploits they might also just assume are okay.

We had an announcement on login that this was not allowed back when the exploit was new. It'd probably be annoying to have the announcement on permanently though (and this exploit can never be patched in already generated terrain, so that really would be forever.) Maybe we could add some signs at spawn or something.

Maybe reference the legal exploits page at spawn somewhere then? It does seem like this is an issue where genuine mistakes can be made.

That's about as much of an olive branch as I feel is justified though. Sim has had more or less a very clear "ask first" attitude towards things that are and aren't allowed. I don't think offering lesser punishments is fair to players who have already been punished for minor offenses.

[MutualistManiac]

In my opinion this is very clear cut glitch abuse. As sad as it may be for people to get banned over this, if someone automatically assumes this is okay to exploit, I have to wonder what other exploits they might also just assume are okay.

We had an announcement on login that this was not allowed back when the exploit was new. It'd probably be annoying to have the announcement on permanently though (and this exploit can never be patched in already generated terrain, so that really would be forever.) Maybe we could add some signs at spawn or something.

I don't understand the logic with this one. The location of the diamonds exists because of an unintentional glitch, yes, but chunk errors are also an unintentional feature in the generation of the game. By this logic shouldn't it be illegal to use chunk borders to find bases? I also don't think the rules make this clear at all either.

[Anthand]

In my opinion this is very clear cut glitch abuse. As sad as it may be for people to get banned over this, if someone automatically assumes this is okay to exploit, I have to wonder what other exploits they might also just assume are okay.

We had an announcement on login that this was not allowed back when the exploit was new. It'd probably be annoying to have the announcement on permanently though (and this exploit can never be patched in already generated terrain, so that really would be forever.) Maybe we could add some signs at spawn or something.

I guess since you haven't actually engaged with the community in half a decade this ass-backwards logic would make sense. Unfortunately for your argument, as well as your server's populace, most meta-defining farms and pvp styles involve one or more of these 'overpowered exploits'. Villager halls, gold farms, ghast tear farms, crystal & anchor pvp as a whole, strip mining strategies (every two blocks at y 11 or y 15 for netherite), one-way portals, chorus fruit elytra evasion, ender pearl stasis chambers, bedrock breaking devices, and countless other commonly used tactics are all fucking exploits, and yes each one gives a massive advantage to the player using them. So really if you actually have principles about being a purist square with a stick up his ass, telling off and jailing the children who are trying to have fun on your shitty, slow, server, you would also crack down on every one of the exploits mentioned above. The only reasons I can think of for why this hasn't happened is that you are either too stupid to realize your own hypocrisy, or you know that your entire playerbase would immediately leave if you attempted it. I really don't expect any of this to get through your thick, gorilla skull, but by chance it does, I hope you realize that you cannot expect the entirety of the playerbase, especially those who are not fluent in English, to read every single one of your vague 'Rules updates' forum posts or know what exactly counts as 'Illegal glitch abuse' and 'Normal game mechanic'. Furthermore, your miserable admins can't even give straight answers to people who are honestly curious about the legality of a mechanic or mod because of how fucky and draconic rules have become. You've now jailed a player, who by all evidence appears to have had no idea about your announcements, because of a world-generation quirk which shouldn't be illegal to begin with, and despite this obvious evidence that the fault is on your behalf, you will not unjail them. At the very fucking least give your fellow admins a break by compiling a formal, STATIC, and CLEAR list of rules which can be accessed IN GAME, including edge cases and other specific information. I know this has been suggested to you in the past, and god knows what mentally ill reason you haven't implemented this yet, but this shitty server management is why me and many other previously dedicated players have stopped playing Sim PvP. Listen to the fucking community, think over your shitty ideas before you decide to implement them, and actually take admin's suggestions into account when they mention them, they are literally doing a part-time job for you for FREE.

[MoWobbler]

Whether following chunk borders to a base is a glitch is up for debate. I don't think that's really relevant to this topic though, because the result of that debate won't change the outcome of this one.

Your other issue was that it isn't clear that this is illegal. To me, it is because rule 2 says that abuse of glitches is illegal. Maybe we have a different definition for glitch? That's my only guess as to where all of the confusion is coming from. Signs were added to spawn and another announcement was made on the discord server to make it extra clear.