Sim PvP Needs Updated Jailing Policies

[KoriJenkins]

Starting off by stating, I have no opinion on DKC's situation. Him being jailed or unjailed has no impact on me. I'll state the same for Resuki, iDeny, and Radioz.

A development on Sim recently has brought a topic into discussion that hasn't been discussed at great length in any official capacity, despite the fact that it probably should've happened during the clay exploit crisis. I believe in enforcing rules more than anyone else. I think nearly everyone put in jail should stay in jail unless they make a damn good argument for their release, or did what they did on accident or out of ignorance.

However, I believe Sim PvP needs updated policies regarding jailings, and appeals, as well as the severity of specific offenses. Currently the enforcement of rules comes off as wildly inconsistent regarding Rule 2, and it leads to accusations of bias and incompetence against the admins and general distrust in server management.

In what form those updated policies come, or what the specific policies regarding them are, I don't know. Hopefully people weigh in, along with the admins themselves, and a consensus of sorts can be formed from this that leads to some reform.

I'll get the discussion started by giving my own proposal.

Create different levels of offenses. Have major offenses that cause damage of the server ranked at Levels 1-3, with the punishment being different for each level.

Level 3 could be things like flyhacking, x-raying, using tracers, or using combat hacks like autototem or autocrystal, essentially things that give a direct advantage over other players. Have this be enforced as the highest level of offense (with jail being 1 year to permanent and a similar appeals process)

Level 2 could be more minor things, visiting illegally obtained coords unknowingly, using an exploit unknowingly, profiting off of x-ray from spawn slaves, etc. Create a new level of punishment revolving around this, either a set time of 1 month, or a range of 1-6 months.

Level 1 could be the most minor offenses. Illegal mod use, such as autoclicker speed being too high, or litematica easyplace use, could result in warnings and jail if warnings are ignored.

Anyway, that's it. 3 levels might not even be needed, but I do think the policy is outdated. The last time it was really given a substantial update was when appeals started being granted years ago. I think we can all agree that blatant flyhacking and x-raying portals is not the same and probably should not carry the same penalty as using easyplace mode in litematica or using an autoclicker inappropriately, but under the current system it does.

Hopefully others will propose some ideas, and the admins will respond with approval or disapproval towards the proposals. The goal is to eliminate confusion and inconsistency.

[Burger]

You're overthinking it, this sounds like too many complicated regulations whose enforcement will not make anyone happy.

Just ban people for breaking the rules. But if an active and established, legitimate player is doing something completely harmless, give them a quick warning and they'll stop: there's no need to be an automaton and ban a legit player over nothing because that's what "the rules" dictate, or assess their actions against a list of criteria and decide the appropriate punishment.

[KoriJenkins]

You're overthinking it, this sounds like too many complicated regulations whose enforcement will not make anyone happy.

Just ban people for breaking the rules. But if an active and established, legitimate player is doing something completely harmless, give them a quick warning and they'll stop: there's no need to be an automaton and ban a legit player over nothing because that's what "the rules" dictate, or assess their actions against a list of criteria and decide the appropriate punishment.

My problem with going down that route is, who decides what an "active and established, legitimate player" is? The admins? If we pretend there's no bias in that decision, what's the cutoff? 100 hours? 200? Is the cutoff based on that or hours per day?

The reason my proposal is complex and overthought is that it eliminates bias by creating a punishment system rather than just leaving it up to whoever is online at the time and feels like deciding something. In that system, you don't look at who committed the offense, just what level the offense is and what punishment it carries.

And how would the enforcement of regulations that virtually change nothing in regular gameplay and simply outline what are and aren't major offenses "not make anyone happy?" Who would actually be unhappy with changes that clarify the enforcement of rules?

[SengornLeopard]

The log in announcement that every player sees every time they log in, claims that all offences result in permeant jails, without any warning. It claims to be very strict, no leniency. The official rules say ask first, ignorance is not an excuse.

But some people get banned, some warned for same offenses. Jail doesn't seem very permeant when every other person gets their year free if they ask. And they only know to ask by word of mouth.

Basically, the log in message is a lie. It lies about how the server manages cheating.

Things which don't give a significant advantage are treated the same as an x-rayer finding and blowing up every base they uncover.
Merely knowing how land generation works with lapis and clay are deemed an illegal exploit. While it was an extremely unpopular decision to ban it, the clear exploit of duplicating infinite tnt was deemed legal for ages.

A player should be able to glance at the rules, and upon logging in, know exactly how they will be treated in any moderation situation. The server should not lie about how strict it is as a means to just dissuade cheating.

[KoriJenkins]

The log in announcement that every player sees every time they log in, claims that all offences result in permeant jails, without any warning. It claims to be very strict, no leniency. The official rules say ask first, ignorance is not an excuse.

But some people get banned, some warned for same offenses. Jail doesn't seem very permeant when every other person gets their year free if they ask. And they only know to ask by word of mouth.

Basically, the log in message is a lie. It lies about how the server manages cheating.

Things which don't give a significant advantage are treated the same as an x-rayer finding and blowing up every base they uncover.
Merely knowing how land generation works with lapis and clay are deemed an illegal exploit. While it was an extremely unpopular decision to ban it, the clear exploit of duplicating infinite tnt was deemed legal for ages.

A player should be able to glance at the rules, and upon logging in, know exactly how they will be treated in any moderation situation. The server should not lie about how strict it is as a means to just dissuade cheating.

I'm here to destroy you with facts and logic.

One: Permanent jail is not a lie. Being released is not automatic, appeals are not automatically granted. The only part of that that's a lie is "no second chances" which only applies to the most malicious/unapologetic hackers.

Two: Nobody reads it anyway.

Three: It is a deterrent. Players are more likely to cheat if they know they'll get a second chance.

Four: Nobody reads it anyway. (Seriously Seng, they don't even read the damn signs they spawn in front of that say "type /rules morons")

Five: The join message hurts no one. There is not a single active player that falls into the group most affected by its alleged dishonesty (that is players with under 10 hours played who x-ray). Why? Most ask "when do I get out?" and quit after finding out they have to wait a year and never return. There is not a single active player on Sim now or in the last year that was a formerly jailed x-rayer that I know of. The only active formerly jailed player that I know of is jake.

However on everything else you're right. The inconsistencies with enforcement are a problem. I just don't think changing the join message is the fix-all solution, or would even help at all. It might encourage more people to fly around and x-ray like ass clowns.

[SengornLeopard]

Problem with logic:

If the lie doesn't matter because players always ask and get told they can appeal, then the lie is not an effective deterrent.

It is a minor inaccuracy I agree, but I hate inaccuracies. It is a very simple fix that wouldn't take the time out of anyone's day. So why not just fix it by removing the word "permanent"?

It just might be possible that it could hurt someone, someone who may have the chance to become a huge member of the sim community but it never happened because they assumed their jail was actually permanent. And that bugs me.

Think of it as a small favor to sooth the mind of the OCD, like companies fixing a 2-pixel asymmetry in their logo. It's related to the topic at hand, so i figured why not bring it up.

[KoriJenkins]

Problem with logic:

If the lie doesn't matter because players always ask and get told they can appeal, then the lie is not an effective deterrent.

It is a minor inaccuracy I agree, but I hate inaccuracies. It is a very simple fix that wouldn't take the time out of anyone's day. So why not just fix it by removing the word "permanent"?

It just might be possible that it could hurt someone, someone who may have the chance to become a huge member of the sim community but it never happened because they assumed their jail was actually permanent. And that bugs me.

Think of it as a small favor to sooth the mind of the OCD, like companies fixing a 2-pixel asymmetry in their logo. It's related to the topic at hand, so i figured why not bring it up.

The lie isn't a deterrent against people asking for appeals, it's a deterrent against them hacking to begin with.

Sure, Yukar can fix it, but I suspect it might be due to the deterrence it offers against hackers, even if it's only 5% effective at reducing them, that he hasn't. I would even say a strong anti-hacking statement is valuable given Sim's relationship with other anarchy servers and it's propensity to draw players in from said servers.

[KoriJenkins]

Do the forums use my local timezone?

They do!

[DakkaTEMP]

Temp account because I lost my password and apparently automated password resets are broken. Real Dakka though.

The idea of a rule system like this has been discussed before, and I still have the same opinion towards it. That opinion may be biased since I was admin for years, and am obviously an established player, but I think the current system is about the best we can do. (No, I wouldn't mind removing the "Permanent" from the message to make Sengorn happy).

I think to see the issues with a complex and very clear rule system you just have to compare it to real life laws. The reason those are so hideously complex and require an entire profession to understand and apply is in fact to remove human bias as much as possible. That makes sense because they apply to serious crimes and can drastically affect people's lifes. And yet, loopholes are still found and abused, and human bias still affects the results in many cases.

Now for the block game equivalent. I don't think very many people are interested in studying SimPvP Law, which is why I advocate for keeping the rules are simple as possible. But the more relevant reason I have is my personal experience with players. If you implement a fixed rule system and remove admin bias from the equation, I fucking guarantee you they'll immediately set to finding loopholes, or things you forgot, or badly phrased rules, and get away with it because those are the rules. That'll result in the rules having to be updated on a weekly basis, further making them hard to keep up with. If you give people clearly defined rules, they'll try their hardest to get to the absolute edge of what's legal just because they can.

This is why I think admin bias is a necessary evil. The big bad admin says "don't fuck with the rules, just play it safe" and most players will just play it safe. The DKCs of the world might step over the line and get what some might consider unjustified punishments, and rulings won't be consistent or fair (sorry Pasta), but trusted admins will be able to keep the server running well enough. I believe this is what Yukar originally intended by saying the rules are "intentionally vague", and I agree with his reasoning. I think instead of trying to rewrite the rules or adding more and more clauses, people should be made to understand that this is the intent, and if they really really really need that plugin to make the game playable, they can wait around a few days to ask Yukar when he's online.

I don't think setting a fixed point at which a player is "a long-term part of the community" is a good idea either. If you do that, people will look forward to the day they can get away with minor shit, and I guarantee you some will try to abuse that. I think admins should be able to decide on an individual basis who deserves the benefit of the doubt, and I think it's usually pretty easy to make a gut decision about whether someone is "part of the community" or not.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I just wanted to weigh in a little on this topic since it refuses to go away.

[DKC]

I do not think, in any capacity, what I did should result in an immediate unjail, but it really does not hurt the community to allow for better jail reform. Other, more popular servers, have jailing systems the same as Sim does, but they differ in the fact that bans for minor offences, ones that still break the rules but offer no advantage or too much harm, are handled in a much better way. I have no sympathy for people who xray, combat hack, or other hacks like such in the slightest. But to handle a player who did something months ago before reading the rules in depth, who got no advantage or anything out of what they did, the same way you would handle a hacker or malicous exploiter is ubsurd.

Now to talk about what I would like to see from SimPVP's jail reform is a system similar to Purity Vanilla, in which if a players first offence does not allow for them to gain an advantage or doesnt cause that much harm to the server, they recieve a temporary ban spanning from a week to a few months. To address the argument that Dakka has established within his argument that, "Now for the block game equivalent. I don't think very many people are interested in studying SimPvP Law, which is why I advocate for keeping the rules are simple as possible. But the more relevant reason I have is my personal experience with players. If you implement a fixed rule system and remove admin bias from the equation, I fucking guarantee you they'll immediately set to finding loopholes, or things you forgot, or badly phrased rules, and get away with it because those are the rules. That'll result in the rules having to be updated on a weekly basis, further making them hard to keep up with. If you give people clearly defined rules, they'll try their hardest to get to the absolute edge of what's legal just because they can." servers such as, but not limited to Purity Vanilla obejectively see more new players at a time than that of Sim and have no problem implementing their rule system, I really do not see a reason to stick with jail policies that adversely affect players on this server. I am in no way saying that people who xray knowingly should recieve such treatment or other malicious forms of in game fuckery should either, only that players who did break the rules, but not in a very serious way should recieve this benefit of the doubt.

Furthermore, as SimPVP grows and other mechanics are found within the game that maybe are addessed like the clay patch exploit, it is inevitable that another player will fall within this same category of breaking the rules. This area should not be handled like every other hacker or xrayer, because as stated before will eventually cause another player to fall victim to a year jail for something rather small. We need to update without a doubt before more players fall victim to this archaic form of jail policy. If you would like to read up on the banning policies for servers similar to Sim, but with more players on average you can look at this link, https://blog.purityvanilla.com/Ban-Policy/ . There is no reason to stay with such an old system when larger servers can apply rules better than that of Sim.