Jail Appeal

[MutualistManiac]

I think a year long jail is appropriate, If the rules were being enforced the way they claim to be enforced, the jail would be permanent.

1.) DKC did not gain anything, would you let x-rayers go free if they always tossed their diamonds into lava after finding them? They gained nothing.

2.) DKC used a clicker to do something no normal vanilla player does. That is clearly suspect and deserves for him to ask before he used it.

3.) The thing he did- any rational person would know it is against the rules. I highly suspect he is merely claiming ignorance about rules for leniency to get people on his side. Ignorance is not meant to be an excuse anyway as per point #5.

4.) This is not a new rule added in, this has been a rule all along. There is no valid comparison between this or using the vanilla mechanic to find diamonds with clay.

5.) Every time you log into the server, this message is displayed prominently on your screen: Cheating is not allowed, and will result in a permanent jail with no warning or second chance. This rule is enfored very strictly (The misspelling is in the actual announcement)
-Either this message should be enforced the way it claims, or it should be changed to reflect how the server actually operates.

6.) It's not that he used ghost blocks, honestly. That is not the point at all. He used a program or equipment to preform actions no vanilla player could achieve. The 'significant advantage' part of the rules haven't been taken into consideration for many past judgments by the administration, so why bring it up here? Several things which are forbidden do not actually provide a significant advantage in terms of game play.

If we want DKC to get special leniency for breaking the rules, and we do not adhere to the log in message's strict guidelines, then It is reasonable to demand that this leniency of giving warnings and short jailing's be offered to everyone. And to be offered retroactively.

Response to 1.)

There is a meaningful distinction between having committed the violation and not having committed the violation. A player that has X-rayed for diamonds and returned them after getting caught has demonstrated a capacity to break the rules in an active matter whereas one who simply had the X-ray on and did not use it has actually demonstrated a continued consistency with the rules.

Response to 2.)

Whether or not he asked before he acted has no bearing on the question of whether or not his sentence is justified. If one does not confer an advantage unto themselves, one has no rationality to ask for permission. As I have stated above there is a difference between the two concepts of getting an advantage and simply using the illegal mod.

Response to 3.)

This is hearsay. Why should we accept this speculation? I may agree with the inductive reasoning here, but it should not hold when making these kinds of decisions. We already have precedent on that.

Response to 4.)

Agreed.

Response to 5.)

Agreed, but Yukar has openly stated that he loves how his rules and their applications violate basic logic. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Response to 5.)

It is brought up because it is a reasonable standard. You cling to consistency in the rules at once, then denounce it in another.

[DKC]

I'll make my position on this clear and simple. I have had to deal with dumbassery from the application of the "oh so consistent" rules for years on this server and from all of that I know one thing for sure, there is no consistency. I was jailed for a year for a very similar thing to what DKC was, I never used the illegal thing for my own benefit too, but it didn't matter. And do you know what, NOT A SINGLE ADMIN has told me they would do that again? Jail me that is. However, here we see them doing just that.

In 2020 there was another guy caught doing THE EXACT SAME THING that I did to get jailed. He only got 6 months. Is that fair? I get a year he gets 6 months, and why, because they felt like it. So don't appeal to some imagined consistency in these "rules" that Yukar has specifically conjured up to be inconsistent. (He admitted that)

Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not legal to use hacked clients on the server if you do not benefit from them? I thought that was an established rule. At least that is what I was TOLD BY AN ADMIN when I joined the server in 2017. If that is not the case then jail me again because I guarantee that I have logged on with a hacked client at least once or twice. To be frank, we all use illegal mods. LETS BE FUCKING HONEST. The only difference here is that we didn't get caught.

tbh the server would be a better place without DKC, but it isn't really about that for me. I can't help but feel that the only reason some people aren't jailed for this stuff and others are is due to their popularity and time spent on the server more than it is to do with them actually breaking the rules. The mods don't ban me anymore BECAUSE THEY LIKE ME, and no one cares about DKC except his silly preteen friends. How is that for consistent and "fair".

I agree with you fully. But the fact is with my ban there is so much misinformation on what actually happened and almost nobody with any actual power over my conviction has made public the reason and things that lead to my ban. I used an autoclicker that was set to drag clicking speeds, which I understand is illegal, I am NOT arguing it isn't illegal just that the effect it had on my gameplay and everyone elses was literally none. I got some mediocre sense of "fun" after I realized I could produce such ghost blocks in the first place. The fact that I am not liked should not, I repeat for emphasis, SHOULD NOT have an affect on me being unjailed. We have seen it already and it is clear that my jail has made ripples through the community, but most either do not care or have been told blatantly wrong information in order to push some idea that what I did was worse than what it was. The fact is if this happened to anyone that had a better stance in the community they would NOT have been jailed or at least would have an easier time resolving to a shorter jail. These rules should be applied fairly, no matter if they are made vague on purpose or not. If players can use a "more complicated xray", no different than using the seed's RNG to identify diamond ore, which is illegal and will result in you getting a year jail, can be unjailed in a MONTH, I and many others who aren't drove by in game drama or just false information think that I should not be given the same treatment as a hacker, xrayer, or duper. Not every crime has the same result and that is apparent in Sim if you aren't me, especially since it was made known players used it in the 2nd Seige and were not punished. I genuinely think that what I did was wrong, but you wouldn't give a shoplifter life in prison for stealing a candy bar, same as you wouldn't jail an active player with more than 500 hours and almost 4 hours per day. That is ridiculous. Me and pasta agree on almost all of the same points and I've made very CLEAR I do not want to get off with a warning. I did break the rules, but less so than the diamond clay patch exploiters, yet I get a longer sentence. I've also brought this up before but just for clarification, I DID NOT use an illegal mod. I used an ALLOWED autoclicker at drag clicking speeds to make TEMPORARY ghost blocks in spawn. I can not pvp there to get an advantage, I can not build in there to get an advantage, I can not do anything that could give me an advantage with what I did. I did break the rules, I can admit that, but I do not think I cheated. I did not get anything out of what I did, and I was not aware it was against the rules. You can take my word as you'd like, but why would I throw away 500 hours just so I could autoclick? Rhetorical question, I wouldn't. I have NEVER used an illegal mod on sim, I've always asked before I even consider adding a mod to my loadout in order to make sure that it is not against the rules. Wobbot does not lie, I have asked many times. I will freely cooperate with anybody who would like to ask questions and have freely cooperated with all of the admins during my time on sim. I am an active and legitimate player that would just like to continue enjoying your server. Nothing more, nothing less.

[MisterStrawman]

The rules were clearly broken, and the discussion seems to be revolving around whether or not the impact should have any effect on the sentencing. Although this isn't stated explicitly, and I'm sure there have been times in the past where this hasn't been the case, but there are situations in which the 1 year pardon do not apply, making the bans in these cases permanent. Usually this applies to ban evasion, intentionally crashing the server, or being in a position where when the person comes back, they're very likely to cheat again. At its inception, the 1 year rule was meant to give long time regulars who cheat in a minor way a chance to come back, and was intended to be given out rarely, requiring the consensus of all admins. Over time this evolved into where it stands today, which is basically everyone who gets jailed gets out in a year if they appeal. Prior to that, virtually all bans were permanent, but even then there were rare exceptions when there wasn't a clear right answer.

So why do we have rules? Not to punish people who cheat, but to keep cheating off the server. With that in mind, looking at the exact wording of rule 2 does seem to be misleading, as both bullet points state that you're not allowed to:
-use mods that give an unfair advantage ('hack clients')
-abuse glitches or otherwise misuse anything that is not an intended part of the game in any way that confers a significant advantage
I had always interpreted this in that the advantage part was a sufficient, but not necessary condition. Looking at it now, it's easy to see how one might think it is a necessary condition, so there is some ambiguity there. I now think it should be reworded, but that's a different discussion.

In the allowed mods section it does explicitly state that autoclickers above 1 cps are not allowed, and there is no ambiguity there. I believe this should have been enough to clear up any confusion in this specific case, thus I think the jail was justified. Furthermore, we may have drastically different definitions on what an "advantage" is, as it depends on one's subjective goal in playing Minecraft, which by the very nature of the game is open-ended when it comes to what you're supposed to do. In PVP, it's pretty clear how an autoclicker gives you an advantage, and if one goal in Minecraft is to have fun making ghost blocks at spawn, autoclicking does also provide an unfair advantage to this end. Point being it might not be worth considering the advantage one gains as the standard.

I don't think there's much else to say in this thread regarding this case specifically, the jail stands. If we're looking into considering whether or not we want to have different sentences depending on the severity of each violation, I'm open to it. I refer to this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2876

Depending on the outcome of this, DKC might end up getting a reduced sentence if we decide to change the jail policy, and I think there's a real possibility that we do, so I'd like to steer the discussion over to that thread.

[DKC]

The rules were clearly broken, and the discussion seems to be revolving around whether or not the impact should have any effect on the sentencing. Although this isn't stated explicitly, and I'm sure there have been times in the past where this hasn't been the case, but there are situations in which the 1 year pardon do not apply, making the bans in these cases permanent. Usually this applies to ban evasion, intentionally crashing the server, or being in a position where when the person comes back, they're very likely to cheat again. At its inception, the 1 year rule was meant to give long time regulars who cheat in a minor way a chance to come back, and was intended to be given out rarely, requiring the consensus of all admins. Over time this evolved into where it stands today, which is basically everyone who gets jailed gets out in a year if they appeal. Prior to that, virtually all bans were permanent, but even then there were rare exceptions when there wasn't a clear right answer.

So why do we have rules? Not to punish people who cheat, but to keep cheating off the server. With that in mind, looking at the exact wording of rule 2 does seem to be misleading, as both bullet points state that you're not allowed to:
-use mods that give an unfair advantage ('hack clients')
-abuse glitches or otherwise misuse anything that is not an intended part of the game in any way that confers a significant advantage
I had always interpreted this in that the advantage part was a sufficient, but not necessary condition. Looking at it now, it's easy to see how one might think it is a necessary condition, so there is some ambiguity there. I now think it should be reworded, but that's a different discussion.

In the allowed mods section it does explicitly state that autoclickers above 1 cps are not allowed, and there is no ambiguity there. I believe this should have been enough to clear up any confusion in this specific case, thus I think the jail was justified. Furthermore, we may have drastically different definitions on what an "advantage" is, as it depends on one's subjective goal in playing Minecraft, which by the very nature of the game is open-ended when it comes to what you're supposed to do. In PVP, it's pretty clear how an autoclicker gives you an advantage, and if one goal in Minecraft is to have fun making ghost blocks at spawn, autoclicking does also provide an unfair advantage to this end. Point being it might not be worth considering the advantage one gains as the standard.

I don't think there's much else to say in this thread regarding this case specifically, the jail stands. If we're looking into considering whether or not we want to have different sentences depending on the severity of each violation, I'm open to it. I refer to this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2876

Depending on the outcome of this, DKC might end up getting a reduced sentence if we decide to change the jail policy, and I think there's a real possibility that we do, so I'd like to steer the discussion over to that thread.

I appreciate your words, but I was more concerned on how the rules have been applied in the past. As long as I've been on Sim xraying has been illegal and will result in a ban. The same argument that applied to the sentencing for Resuki and IDeny stand for me as well. It was in the exploits page that what they did was against the rules at the time that they did it. There claim was that their ignorance did not allow them to have a fair understanding of the rules. The same thing applies to me. I was not aware of these rules nor did I know what the allowed mod page was at the time. Furthermore, I think we can both agree MisterStrawman that placing ghost blocks is in no way comparable to the advanatge gained from abusing RNG to make a profit. If we can agree on this stance then I ask why was their ignorance even considered in the matter if mine won't be and why should the ability to make a profit by abusing in game mechanics result in a lesser sentence than something that affects nobody? I am in no way saying that they should not have been jailed for a month, I'm only saying that the rules have not been applied fairly and that what I did was no where near as severe as the glorified xray which is the clay patch exploit. I do understand where you are coming from with your comment on the advantage it gives in pvp, but there is no documented occurrences of me using it as such, nor have I even considered doing so. The avantages of what I did, even if there were any, was that I got to have a bit of fun in spawn. I would not consider this grounds of putting me with the likes of genuine cheaters, nor do quite a few people. I must also say that in no way am I asking to be unjailed immediately, but if others that have done worse got a lesser sentence I do not see why I'm not being considered for one on account of my activity and overall cooperation with authority on Sim. I did not mean to break the rules, nor would I continue to break the rules if such shorter sentence is granted. I am in no way demanding this, but I do think you should at least consider and tell me why I as a legitimate player should not recieve the same sentencing as the clay patch exploiters when what I did is objectively not as bad.

[jake276493]

It seems blatantly obvious to me that this jail is unjust and unfounded, given the circumstance and the vagueness of the rules in the past. First of all, I think the easiest thing to argue is how pointless a jail like this is when A) It provides no material gain and causes no harm to any of the server's players, similar to my jail, which most people now agree was pointless and B) I have not tested this yet, but it seems given the normal lag conditions of Sim, creating a ghost block within the spawn region should be possible without use of an autoclicker, not mentioning the fact he received no warning beforehand. Now, I will be clear I did not agree with the unjailing of the Clay Patch Exploiters, but given the circumstance that their sentence was reduced because "they saw it as an intentional game mechanic" and were jailed AFTER it was made clear it was not allowed, it should give DKC the same passage as he created these ghost blocks weeks before the new rules were posted on the wiki. To add to this, before the recent re-writing of the rules, autoclicker rules have always been up to what the online admin /msg'd you, where admins such as Dakka, Ost, and Mo claimed autoclickers were fully allowed aslong as they were not used for pvp, and admins like Yukarion claiming they were never allowed, DKC could of easily been told the rules on autoclickers did not exclude the use of using them at an "Impossible Speed". The rules on autoclickers have been so vague in the past it seems absurd DKC is getting jailed after no warning for an entire year.

[KoriJenkins]

It seems blatantly obvious to me that this jail is unjust and unfounded, given the circumstance and the vagueness of the rules in the past. First of all, I think the easiest thing to argue is how pointless a jail like this is when A) It provides no material gain and causes no harm to any of the server's players, similar to my jail, which most people now agree was pointless and B) I have not tested this yet, but it seems given the normal lag conditions of Sim, creating a ghost block within the spawn region should be possible without use of an autoclicker, not mentioning the fact he received no warning beforehand. Now, I will be clear I did not agree with the unjailing of the Clay Patch Exploiters, but given the circumstance that their sentence was reduced because "they saw it as an intentional game mechanic" and were jailed AFTER it was made clear it was not allowed, it should give DKC the same passage as he created these ghost blocks weeks before the new rules were posted on the wiki. To add to this, before the recent re-writing of the rules, autoclicker rules have always been up to what the online admin /msg'd you, where admins such as Dakka, Ost, and Mo claimed autoclickers were fully allowed aslong as they were not used for pvp, and admins like Yukarion claiming they were never allowed, DKC could of easily been told the rules on autoclickers did not exclude the use of using them at an "Impossible Speed". The rules on autoclickers have been so vague in the past it seems absurd DKC is getting jailed after no warning for an entire year.

First off the ghost blocks have nothing to do with it. Nothing about them is illegal, they don't matter, someone could make ghost blocks directly in front of me and I wouldn't do anything.

Second, autoclickers were stated as being completely illegal 3 days before he was jailed by Yukarion (the admin with the final word on every issue) on the Allowed Mods page, which has since been combined with rules.

I've said it before, if you want DKC released, you need to argue for policy reform and come up with proposals as to how new jail policies could work, or you need to argue that he gained nothing at all (and exclusively that) and doesn't deserve to be in jail for 1 year.

[MisterStrawman]

I may be remembering this wrong, and I'm not sure what Dakka Mo or Ostrich have said, but I thought the 1 cps autoclicker standard has been in place for at least a year or two.

Also to be honest, I wasn't really pro- letting the clay patch exploiters out of jail, and this thread if anything seems to be convincing me that they shouldn't have been released in the first place. They were released as a flimsy solution to a controversial gray area, not to set the precedent for how we approach things going forward. To be clear, they were an exception, and probably an arguably weak one at that.

This specific case I think is pretty much shut. I think there are good arguments for people in general getting more lenient sentences for minor offenses, and DKC might even be a good example of such. But we're not going to make a specific exception for him, despite having done so to the clay patch exploiters, and possibly others. The discussion is now about if, when, and how we're going to apply more lenient sentences to minor offenses in general, so we can try to hash out a consistent and explicit policy on these matters for this case, and future cases. If we do decide to go that route, DKC is still going to serve a partial jail sentence for a minor violation, so I don't think there's much of an argument for him to be released immediately, there certainly could be one for him to be released in less than a year.

As such I'm going to close this thread and invite everyone to continue the discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2876

[KoriJenkins]

After discussion, it has been decided that _DKC will be unjailed on the 7th of October. We don't believe this situation in question is severe enough to warrant a full jail sentence of 1 year, as well as the fairly significant amount of time that had passed from the date of the offense to his jailing.

This does NOT mean that 1 year jails are not the norm, they still are. It also does NOT mean that there's now a statute of limitations on offenses, there's not.

That also does not mean jail policies won't be updated in the future. In all likelihood they will, and if you have suggestions for it, leave them at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2876