TnT Duping for Tree Farms

[Nebuelad]

Hello. It's me. Nebuelad. Today I would like to put forward the suggestion of making a slight alteration to the TnT Duping plugin. My idea is to allow it to destroy logs of all types and leaves of all types. This is so that TnT Duping can be used to make Tree Farms.

Bare in mind I have always been in favor of TnT duping remaining in its entirety so take that on board but I am only asking for trees here. The main reason for this is that wither based tree farms are laggy, complex and often break. They are a bad alternative to TnT duping based farms and one that many of the player base is simply unable to build, leading to them building even more inefficient designs. Personally I feel that this is a very minor adjustment to the whole TnT duping situation and one which is far less impactful than previous alterations to the plugin.

It will simply make the farms more reliable, easier to make for the lesser farm builders among us and provide similar amounts of wood total. I think this would be a good compromise to make to aid in the servers health without really impacting the economy too strongly. I am also aware that these tnt based tree farms already work without duping, but that requires a large time investment in digging sand to a point where it is more profitable just to go cut down some trees instead.

I am also aware that people may look at this and see this as the pebble that makes the avalanche fall, but I'd say that other resources that could potentially be mined using TnT duping have arguments which are much easier to deflect at least in my opinion. Concrete for example could be mined using TnT duping, but it would not be much more efficient and would not make the server less laggy, therefore it is not a feature worth reintroducing. I am mainly choosing trees due to the laggy nature of wither based tree farms, with the downsides of it being reintroduced being very minimal.

As a slight off topic note, not attached to this main point, I do believe TnT duping should return in it's entirety. Mojang has said it is a feature that they are purposefully keeping in the game due to a lack of good alternatives. You can say it is unintentional and overpowered, but I can levy the same arguments on withers.
Withers are far more effective at griefing and destroying bases, and are comically cheaper than TnT too. Withers can be used for farms in cages. I highly doubt Mojang "intended" for Withers to be able to be caged up and taunted by snowmen to endlessly break obsidian and yet that feature is okay. And yet TnT duping, much less efficient at griefing, much more expensive and much harder work to use to grief a large area is seen as too strong.
As far as I can see, the only difference between the uses for withers and the uses of TnT Duping is that TnT Duping is 100% certified to remain in the game as it is a feature that Mojang has publicly stated they are happy to keep. Wither uses are clearly unintentional by design. I highly doubt the developers at Mojang really thought that players would be able to cage a wither up and trap it to a point where it endlessly blows things up items for vast production rates. Or that you can trap a wither in a broken end gateway to make epearls and wither roses as another example.
And just to be clear, I do not think that Withers should be disabled, as annoying as they are, and as laggy as they are, with the ability to cause large frame drops as well as level a base in less than 20 minutes with barely any input from the griefers, all whilst still being cheaper than TnT.

So if anyone at all is interested in that, then please do speak up since I believe that it's worth saying. But if not then please at least consider my main request of making tree farms work with TnT duping. It wouldn't hurt the server much and it would make farms more accessible for all whilst also making the server more consistent with it's designs and lead to less laggy farms being built overall. Thank you for your time and responses.

[Nebuelad]

Just a minor update, if anyone who would like to support this, please feel free to add your name to this list https://simplicitypvp.net/w/TnT_Duping_for_Tree_Farms. Or ask me and I shall happily add it for you! The louder our voices are, the more likely we are to get a solid response! Thank you for your support.

[iLxgend]

I see a few problems with this. Tnt duping was originally brought back to help combat lava casts, that was the main focus. Prior to that, the admin team didn't want to have it at all. I'm not against it nor for it really since if it was fully open to do whatever you want with tnt duping, I could find a lot of useful things to use it for. However, in Sim's case, allowing tnt duping to have a more selective use doesn't seem like the best idea. I understand you want some better efficiency with how you can gather logs, but I will say that I have personally used Illango's universal tree design server times in my couple years of playing and while there is a tnt duper design for it, we used just a normal tnt coming out of a dispenser and it worked great. Never broke in low tps, (I'm talking like sub 7 tps) and it really didn't use that much tnt. Considering that specific farm would only use a tnt for every 256 logs, if you have a double chest or two of tnt ready to be used, it would last you awhile (I know because we would afk it for well over 8 hours at a time).

To continue on with other means of use for tnt duping, I find allowing it for logs and leaves is rather picky. In a situation like this it would almost be better to allow it for everything in general. I just see it as a way to help benefit a very specific situation and not so much everyone as a whole. Yeah withers are the main griefing technique, but if tnt duping was more allowed, I would still see it being used as a griefing technique which I'm sure more people would not like to be on the receiving end of nor the admin team would like to see. In my past, I have been able to use non tnt duping designs to wield the same or at least very close outcomes and I really don't think it would be needed to go any further than where it is currently.

[DakkaDok]

Oh God it's this again.
I'm against it.

[KoriJenkins]

To continue on with other means of use for tnt duping, I find allowing it for logs and leaves is rather picky. In a situation like this it would almost be better to allow it for everything in general. I just see it as a way to help benefit a very specific situation and not so much everyone as a whole. Yeah withers are the main griefing technique, but if tnt duping was more allowed, I would still see it being used as a griefing technique which I'm sure more people would not like to be on the receiving end of nor the admin team would like to see. In my past, I have been able to use non tnt duping designs to wield the same or at least very close outcomes and I really don't think it would be needed to go any further than where it is currently.

I don't think TNT duping for the purpose of griefing will ever work. It's simply a lot easier to spam withers or just blow up whatever you're targeting. A duper is limited to a narrow path and has to be monitored over the course of hours.

[Nebuelad]

My first thing to note is your initial remark. I feel that the admin team is not fully against it like you would suggest. Yes in the past it was brought back just for lava casts, but that doesn't mean that people or admins wouldn't be in favor for tree farms as you would suggest. People can change opinions over time. For example both Kori and Ostrich have already signed their names on the list in favor of TnT Duping based tree farms. Maybe they don't have a great deal of motivation to bring it up themselves, but it's clearly something that a good portion of sim and the admins are in favor of. And I'd wager that there are far more people in favor who just haven't spoken out yet.

I'm also unsure as to your problems with reintroducing it. You have simply stated alternatives which I had already listed. The fact there are alternatives is not something I have opposed. It's just wither based farms are tricky for the average player and I would almost certainly finish with a laggy product as an uninitiated build maker. TnT based Tree farms without duping feel fairly inefficient although I understand it is an option. TnT is an expensive resource and a shulker of TnT as you suggest would take the average player longer to obtain than just cutting down the trees.

I also don't think it's picky. I think it is a fair resource to be able acquire in large quantities. The server seems to agree that TnT dupers are fine to be used to obtain cobblestone, but is it crazy to decide that using them to farm logs is okay? I don't feel like it's that a rare resource and I don't feel like it's incredibly powerful to allow this. I also do not see how "In a situation like this, it would almost be better to allow it for everything in general." You briefly noted it but put forward no argument for it's stance. I am unsure as to why it would be better to allow it for everything rather than just trees. For example enabling it for everything would allow it's use for netherite mining, which my suggestion would not affect.

So I don't understand what the defense for that position is. If a ponit like that is to be made, I'd like it to be properly explained, since I don't wish bog the conversation down with real counter arguments such as "It is a very controlled way to mine out perimeters." Or "It is potentially potent for afking netherite mining." which I would have more to argue against, if it mattered in this conversation. I am simply asking for tree farms. I am not sure how it is picky and I feel there is clear advantages to ONLY allowing tree farms, and NOT allowing netherite or perimeter TnT duping. I.E. One would be good for netherite farming. My suggestion would only affect logs. I'd say that's a VERY big difference.

Also just since I would like it enabled for everything, I would say that the feature shouldn't have been disabled to begin with. I don't want to focus on this too much, since discourse can often get bogged down on points that I am less interested in. I.e. I don't want to have a discussion on this since it simply distracts from my main requests. But I do feel that much has changed since Yukar last decided to disable TnT duping. I would say back then, it wasn't common for players to have wither skull farms. The full potential of Withers was not as obvious as before. Essentially I believe TnT duping was removed because it was seen as too powerful and not fully intended. However now that withers are common as dirt, I feel people now can see that TnT Duping, whilst useful, is not as powerful a tool as Withers are. And it's obvious that Wither Based farms were not intended by Mojang. And yet Withers are okay? It just seems off to me

Finally I completely disagree with your final point about TnT duping being used to grief. Nobody want's to be griefed and it they'll be just as upset if you grief them with Withers as it does with TnT Dupers. I totally disagree that if someone's base was griefed that they would be outraged with the TnT Duping Aspect of the grief rather than simply being pissed that someone destroyed their hard work at all. I also would like to slightly correct your comment. At least 2 of the admins already have publicly stepped forward in defense of my suggested changes. So don't claim that this is a change the admin team would not want to see, when you clearly do not know what all of the admins would like to see.

Once again, please don't distracted and argue over the full return of tnt duping as it is simply distracting from my main arguments. So to compile my points as to why it should return :

*It makes players life easier, and before you say this is a bad reason please look to /Phantoms.
*It will lead to less laggy farms, due to inexperienced farm builders such as myself not wrecking tps by making shit wither based farms which are very difficult to build
*The negative impact of this change is incredibly minor. Most people still have plenty of wood and wood is certainly not a rare resource
*This does not make it any harder to destroy lavacasts. The majority of builds beneath the lavacast will still remain in tact as this only affects natural terrain.
*This will make farms more consistent and randomly break less. I hear plenty of stories of withercages breaking for no real reason and would say this is an unneeded instability.
*Many people want this! The truth is people like TnT duping and it is a fully intended feature of Minecraft. Maybe not at it's conception, but Mojang is not going to fix it because they WANT it! Not to mention Sim players play the server a lot! We're dedicated and certainly people shouldn't bend to their whims. But I feel we're all here to have fun and ultimately this would make sim more fun for many players and isn't that what this is all about? If something would have minimal damage to the server, if any, but make everyone's lives more fun then why not add it?

Once again I am far from omnipotent, so if you do have reasons you don't want tree farms with TnT duping please do tell me. But right now, I don't see any reason not to add it rather than "The admins decided in the past."

[clipchip]

I'm against this for a variety of reasons:

• There's a huge difference between tedium and difficulty, which makes this different from phantoms. Wither based tree farms are not tedious or extremely time consuming to build if you know how to do it; on the contrary wither cages are easier now than they've ever been now since the hitbox change in 1.8. If a 'technical' player is struggling with wither cages they probably need to spend less time copying youtube tutorials block for block and instead learn how the game works.

• This clearly will affect the economy, just maybe not in a negative way for yourself. If wither based farms are really too difficult for the average player then you are directly killing the potential trading profits from the few players that did go through the effort of building one.

• Can you provide any evidence wither based tree farms are much laggier than tnt duping based ones? I would imagine supplying the farm with bonemeal and moving logs/breaking leaves with pistons is worse relatively.

• Like iLxgend said, tnt blast chambers are incredibly efficient. I've seen designs that can break up to 600 blocks with a single tnt. It's disingenuous to claim chopping trees manually is somehow easier than this. Gunpowder is basically free and each sand block you (instantly) mine would turn into 150 logs.

• I already don't like MoWobbler's stone only plugin, the simpvp admins shouldn't be deciding what is or isn't an acceptable playstyle. People who want to grief or clean spawn should have no advantages based on admin opinion, and now you're asking admins to take it even further and decide the level of 'acceptable' difficulty before they start making certain items easier to farm.

• And finally, and most importantly: Tnt duping is not for making the game easier, it adds more difficult end game content for technical players. Massive perimeters, tunnels, terraforming, on a scale that without movable tnt would be tedious and uninteresting. The few (massively outnumbered) anti-tnt duping luddites here don't seem to understand this and instead think it just makes the game easier, and posts like this directly feed into that belief of tnt duping just being a cheap and easy cheat to get items easily for dumb/lazy players.

If actual tnt duping comes back and you want to build a tree farm using it go for it, but singling out an already easily farmable item and asking for admin exceptions just because you are bad is counterproductive to real tnt duping ever being brought back. I've died too many times and struggled for too many hours with tnt dupers (in huge and now undoable projects) to support to support anyone who claims they make the game "easier".

[iLxgend]

https://youtu.be/vGwsdPAkuZE

I'll just let you watch this video I made and you can determine if tnt dupers are too much...

Just for the reference I can comfortably run this one sim with just two accounts in the area. Have attempted it before so I know its possible. The only thing stopping me from making a full creeper farm sized perimeter out of someone's base, is the blockage of tnt duping.

[Nebuelad]

I'm against this for a variety of reasons:

• There's a huge difference between tedium and difficulty, which makes this different from phantoms. Wither based tree farms are not tedious or extremely time consuming to build if you know how to do it; on the contrary wither cages are easier now than they've ever been now since the hitbox change in 1.8. If a 'technical' player is struggling with wither cages they probably need to spend less time copying youtube tutorials block for block and instead learn how the game works.

• This clearly will affect the economy, just maybe not in a negative way for yourself. If wither based farms are really too difficult for the average player then you are directly killing the potential trading profits from the few players that did go through the effort of building one.

• Can you provide any evidence wither based tree farms are much laggier than tnt duping based ones? I would imagine supplying the farm with bonemeal and moving logs/breaking leaves with pistons is worse relatively.

• Like iLxgend said, tnt blast chambers are incredibly efficient. I've seen designs that can break up to 600 blocks with a single tnt. It's disingenuous to claim chopping trees manually is somehow easier than this. Gunpowder is basically free and each sand block you (instantly) mine would turn into 150 logs.

• I already don't like MoWobbler's stone only plugin, the simpvp admins shouldn't be deciding what is or isn't an acceptable playstyle. People who want to grief or clean spawn should have no advantages based on admin opinion, and now you're asking admins to take it even further and decide the level of 'acceptable' difficulty before they start making certain items easier to farm.

• And finally, and most importantly: Tnt duping is not for making the game easier, it adds more difficult end game content for technical players. Massive perimeters, tunnels, terraforming, on a scale that without movable tnt would be tedious and uninteresting. The few (massively outnumbered) anti-tnt duping luddites here don't seem to understand this and instead think it just makes the game easier, and posts like this directly feed into that belief of tnt duping just being a cheap and easy cheat to get items easily for dumb/lazy players.

If actual tnt duping comes back and you want to build a tree farm using it go for it, but singling out an already easily farmable item and asking for admin exceptions just because you are bad is counterproductive to real tnt duping ever being brought back. I've died too many times and struggled for too many hours with tnt dupers (in huge and now undoable projects) to support to support anyone who claims they make the game "easier".

Thanks for the response, I must admit you actually make some good points that I had not fully considered and would personally ask if you would be in favor of tnt dupings full return? If so, would it be possible to organize a full admin team meeting with Yukar so that you and the other admins can put forward the suggestion to Yukar? I know the admins have spoken to him on this matter in the past, but I feel that withers show that tnt duping isn't so powerful as once thought. And many people would like it's return. I would appreciate anything you can do to try and make this happen. I know that Dakka has already spoken to Yukar about this and he has said he wouldn't read this post at all. So if he won't listen to us maybe if the admins spoke strongly on it, then some progress could be made. I already know 2 of the admins have vocalized their support for this so it's not unimaginable that together you could sway his opinion.

Anyway thank you for your time to respond to this, and thank you for anything you can do to help this in the future!

[MisterHollywood]

I support this. Even if you think it'd be unnecessary, I really don't see how it would negatively impact the server. I do want TnT duping to be fully enabled and this would be a step in the right direction. Keep fighting the good fight o7.