my opinions on mans rights

[PlanetKhamulio]

Everybody knows womans cant drive any vehicles. That means no drives licenses to them.

Seems like a stereotypical african to me.

[SilasOfBorg]

a man cant do an abortion they dont have the womb.

Would you force a woman to have one, against her will? Simple question.

welfare have nothing to do with this subject

Bullshit. You're talking about rights and responsibilities? You don't think its "fair" that you have financial responsibility for a child you don't want?

Well then, is it fair to make ME and everyone else pay for it instead? We didn't even make it!

Yes or no?

Rights do not exist in a vacuum, mitte. They are things we give each other in broader societal contexts to hopefully make things as fair as we can for everyone, including children born to fuck buddies.

A woman who has decided to keep a child has already accepted parental and financial responsibility for the child, to the best of her ability. YOU are the one who wants to opt out and make everyone else help out, if need be.

You can answer my questions and continue the discussion or keep evading them and show yourself for a whining coward, who wants everything to be "fair" to him without considering anyone else.

I actually thought like you for a long time, until I asked myself the hard questions. This is a very personal issue to me, I have been "that guy". In fact, I had already broken up with my GF of the time when she told me she was pregnant and wanted nothing to do with me, except for child support. Fortunately for me, she aborted, but the sound of the bullet whistling past my ear stayed with me.

[mitte90]

Would you force a woman to have one, against her will? Simple question.

i have already told u many times NO u cant force a woman to do an abortion.

Bullshit. You're talking about rights and responsibilities? You don't think its "fair" that you have financial responsibility for a child you don't want?

Well then, is it fair to make ME and everyone else pay for it instead? We didn't even make it!

Yes or no?

its not fair for anyone to make a baby when they dont can afford it BUT is it right to blame the man for ur money loss when he dont want it? when its the womans choice? blame the woman for choosing to have the child without financial needs.

Rights do not exist in a vacuum, mitte. They are things we give each other in broader societal contexts to hopefully make things as fair as we can for everyone, including children born to fuck buddies.

why is ur fuck buddies scenario just against the man? if we can force a man to take responsibility for a baby why cant we force the women to not do an abortion or to abort it?
and this law will not just effect fuck buddies. its for incidental pragnancy, rape (yes a man can get raped), financial, woman that play a man to get pregnant.

lets say a couple gets an unplanned pregnancy, the man dont want it because they dont have the money for it but the woman refuse to abort.
or a woman that put a niddle trow the condom to trick the man.
or a woman that refuse to use protection say she fine with abortion and when she get pregnant refuses

A woman who has decided to keep a child has already accepted parental and financial responsibility for the child, to the best of her ability. YOU are the one who wants to opt out and make everyone else help out, if need be.

a woman have the choice to opt out today (abortion).
u fine when an family without the financial needs gets a baby that u have to pay for?
but not if the man dont "man up"?
are u ok when a woman dont know who the father is?
are u ok when a father have been abandoned by the mother?

we have tons of help for single mothers. the state (u) pay lots of money to them. why are u not angry at that mom for forcing u to pay for it.

You can answer my questions and continue the discussion or keep evading them and show yourself for a whining coward, who wants everything to be "fair" to him without considering anyone else.

i do answer ur questions but u keep with ur ONE argument that its not fair that the state (u) have to pay for it. i say its not fair to punish the man for the women choice.

I actually thought like you for a long time, until I asked myself the hard questions. This is a very personal issue to me, I have been "that guy". In fact, I had already broken up with my GF of the time when she told me she was pregnant and wanted nothing to do with me, except for child support. Fortunately for me, she aborted, but the sound of the bullet whistling past my ear stayed with me.

what was ur hard question?`i really want to hear it. well u been near to get the responsibility forced upon u. i dont get why u then can say that others have to be forced. please explain why u think a man chould be forced the responsibility without ur "i dont want to pay for ur fuck" argument

[worldruler086]

Damn Silas. You got awfully lucky on that one. And I agree with you, though I wouldn't put it so brashly.

I live near Detroit. Detroit gets a lot of bad rap (some justified, some hyperbolic) about being an urban shithole. One thing that's a major problem is that Detroit proper doesn't have a good family system, so seeing kids raised in bad environments (gangs, violence, dads up and leaving) isn't that uncommon. People who are raised in this environment tend to repeat the same cycle, which is why poverty is a really shitty concept. Poverty begets poverty. So child support is something that a lot of suburbanites who don't live in Detroit but in its metro area (we outnumber city members 5 to 1) bring up a lot. It's normally #6 on the "Top 100 reasons Detroit is a shithole" list that we like making. But mitte, I don't think you realize what the child support is there for. It's the closest thing the gov't can do to break, or at the very least mitigate, the poverty cycle. While the raised child may not have a father, or may not have a nice neighborhood to live in, he at least gets 2 meals a day, and mom doesn't have to worry about money (as much). The problem is, where does the money come from?

Your argument is that men who wish to up and leave and do not wish to raise a child they procreated is a very selfish one. It's not a right to "disown" a child. You made the child, that child is 50% you genetically. For all intents and purposes, that child is yours. Even if you aren't there raising him. Which is why child support is (generally) paid for by the parents involved. This is your child, this is a burden on society YOU made, and, dammit, YOU are going to pay for it, whether you like it or not. Because if you don't pay for it, WE have to. WE have to pay for Detroit's problems. WE have to deal with crime that leaves and migrates from Detroit to the suburbs. WE have to deal with this despite our ancestors leaving the city 50 years ago. There are some social systems I don't like, but ones involving sex and services related to that are *desperately* needed in areas that are urban jungles. They might not resolve the problem this year, or the next one, or the next decade, but they make the next generation have a lot easier of a life. I've even read some reports that suggest the large decrease in national crime and violence from the 90's on was a direct result of planned parenthood and other sex services. This makes sense, after all, since most violence in the US are in urban jungles. Detroit has a homicide rate of about 43 per 100k. That's TEN TIMES higher than the national average.

Welfare has EVERYTHING to do with the subject, so long as it relates to gender relations and gender roles. Child support is damn well within that category.

[KennyKatsu]

Well if the child is 50% his why doesn't he get as much of an opinion about the child before it's birth?

[mitte90]

without thinking of the welfare and everything social realated. is it right to force a man to take responsibility for a baby he dont want and have to pay money for it?

[Bloop the poop]

Everybody knows womans cant drive any vehicles. That means no drives licenses to them.

Seems like a stereotypical african to me.

Seems like a stereotypical kid on the internet to me.

[KennyKatsu]

Why does nobody use add to foe?

[SilasOfBorg]

i have already told u many times NO u cant force a woman to do an abortion.

Ok, just making sure you didn't change your mind.

is it right to blame the man for ur money loss when he dont want it? when its the womans choice? blame the woman for choosing to have the child without financial needs.

Blame? I'm not interested in blame. Rights and responsibilities aren't about blame, they're about the kind of world we want to live in despite people (men and women) making stupid choices.

lets say a couple gets an unplanned pregnancy, the man dont want it because they dont have the money for it but the woman refuse to abort.
or a woman that put a niddle trow the condom to trick the man.
or a woman that refuse to use protection say she fine with abortion and when she get pregnant refuses

All excellent examples of people making bad (even evil!) choices. After those choices have been made, then what?

Do you force a woman to abort? You said, no.

So, from the moment you give a woman your sperm, if you have not already signed some kind of legally binding contract, its hers to do what she wants!

Because of this, you made YOUR choice when you pulled your pants down. Sorry, but that is your own logic since you said you wouldn't force a woman to abort.

u fine when an family without the financial needs gets a baby that u have to pay for?
are u ok when a woman dont know who the father is?
are u ok when a father have been abandoned by the mother?

Am I "fine" with that? Of course not! Those are all bad situations. The question is, what do we do?

I am happy that I live in a society that says, "kids didn't ask to be born. Lets try to make sure they get basic needs taken care of."

we have tons of help for single mothers. the state (u) pay lots of money to them. why are u not angry at that mom for forcing u to pay for it.

Who said I'm not? I think it's a stupid, asshole thing to do, to knowingly have a child you cannot afford, knowing that society will step in and try to help.

You are stating quite clearly that you should be able to pay nothing while everyone else in your country chips in.

I will call that how I see it - selfish, with self-serving logic backing it up.

without thinking of the welfare and everything social realated

Ok, nobody else exists, just you and the woman and the child. Walk away, kill them, whatever. What do I care? I don't exist.

You cannot talk about "rights" in such a situation, it is nonsensical.

I think I have said everything as simply and eloquently as I can. If you are in such a situation, you have my sympathy. It sucks. In my case I trusted someone and they "made a mistake" and ended up pregnant. Perhaps it was a mistake, perhaps despite knowing I had quite enough children and wanted no more they simply decided they wanted a child. But it would have been MY child and I would not have insisted that *you* pay for it while I got to walk away.

[FoSchnizzleTheSecond]

So, from the moment you give a woman your sperm, if you have not already signed some kind of legally binding contract, its hers to do what she wants!

Because of this, you made YOUR choice when you pulled your pants down. Sorry, but that is your own logic since you said you wouldn't force a woman to abort.

Doesn't the woman also make the same choice when she pulls her pants down? You have said that the child is 50% his and 50% hers, yet here you say that she can do what she wants with the child. What does her abortion have to do with this, as well? No, the man cannot force her to abort, but he should have some right to excuse him from the pregnancy, just as a woman does, should he not? I'm with mitte on this issue, and I will be until you show a decent argument about this without contradicting yourself.