simplicitypvp.net

2020-05-09:
[10:32:35] [Server thread/INFO]: [Yukarion] Hey I was AFK
[10:32:37] [Server thread/INFO]: [DakkaDok] wb
[10:32:40] [Server thread/INFO]: [Yukarion] So what is the technique they used?
[10:32:59] [Server thread/INFO]: [DakkaDok] they found a dog bound to a player at the base. dogs look in the direction of their owner regardless of distance apparently
[10:33:16] [Server thread/INFO]: [DakkaDok] so they just teleport the dog around a bunch and triangulate
[10:33:29] [Server thread/INFO]: [Yukarion] Ah interesting trick
[10:33:53] [Server thread/INFO]: [Yukarion] My thought on things like that: I think it's fine if it gives an "inaccurate" direction, like if you just look at the dog manually and see which way it's looking
[10:34:10] [Server thread/INFO]: [Yukarion] But if you use a client to get a very accurate (like 64-bit floating point accuracy) direction, then I think that's cheating
[10:34:10] [Server thread/INFO]: [DakkaDok] right
[10:34:35] [Server thread/INFO]: [DakkaDok] although even manually, if they teleport it to like three different places with /portals they can pretty much pinpoint the coordinates
[10:34:42] [Server thread/INFO]: [Yukarion] Which was the same thing with thunder. You can't hear accurately enough to triangulate bases, but a client that logs exact direction can be used to do that
[10:35:09] [Server thread/INFO]: [DakkaDok] this is easier to do manually, but you still have to find a bound dog first
[10:35:18] [Server thread/INFO]: [Yukarion] Yep
[10:35:29] [Server thread/INFO]: [Yukarion] Do you know if they did it manually or used a client?
[10:35:39] [Server thread/INFO]: [DakkaDok] I don't, I assumed they did it manually, but I will ask
[10:35:45] [Server thread/INFO]: [Yukarion] Ok
[10:35:57] [Server thread/INFO]: [Yukarion] If they didn't, I don't think they should be banned, but it should be made clear that they can't do that anymore
[10:36:35] [Server thread/INFO]: [DakkaDok] oh, you don't think it should be allowed?
[10:36:58] [Server thread/INFO]: [Yukarion] I don't think using a client to get super-accurate directions and then triangulating should be allowed
[10:37:11] [Server thread/INFO]: [DakkaDok] oh you mean if they used a client
[10:37:19] [Server thread/INFO]: [DakkaDok] so you're saying manually should be allowed
[10:37:19] [Server thread/INFO]: [Yukarion] If the vanilla client can't do it, it shouldn't be allowed
[10:37:23] [Server thread/INFO]: [Yukarion] Yeah
[10:37:33] [Server thread/INFO]: [DakkaDok] and I assume you see no reason either to tell people what the technique is?
[10:40:27] [Server thread/INFO]: [Yukarion] No, if it's legit then other people should have to figure it out on their own
[10:40:33] [Server thread/INFO]: [DakkaDok] agreed


Message from DakkaDok, May 20
I'd like to talk about Anthand and egnaroky's base finding method again
I've actually kind of changed my mind about it being okay
For some reason I didn't previously consider that it doesn't just find one base, it finds all bases of a player, forever
Whichever Wilburia member's dog they found, that player can never have a safe base again, which seems more broken to me than I originally thought


Message from Yukar9, May 20
Makes sense. Their method requires teleporting the dog with portals, right?
We could make it so dogs only get teleported by their owner.


Message from DakkaDok, May 20
Yeah, I assume they need to teleport it around to get any sort of accurate location
That would work


May 24: Patch #1 is implemented.


Forum messsage from Dakka, October 31
You may remember some months ago, Anthand and egnaroky found a technique for tracking players using those players' wolves. We ruled that this was against the Rules, disabled sitting pet teleporting in the Portal plugin, and that was that. However, we also agreed not to tell others what the technique had been. Now apparently SkullerG has been telling Anthand he knows what it was, and that it was "common knowledge". Does anyone have any idea how this happened? It's probably not a big deal, but I'd be interested to hear how people found out about this.


(Yukar9 never replied.)


2020-12-14:
[01:01:15] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /tell Yukarion Hi
[01:01:27] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m can you answer some questios about the legality of a potential basefinding method?
[01:01:39] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /tell anthand Hi
[01:02:12] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m Yes, I can answer your questions
[01:03:07] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m I messaged you this on the forums, but dakka told me any basefinding method outside of flying randomly. or getting someone to leak, is illegal
[01:03:18] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m Regardless of whether or not it is vanilla or intended
[01:03:21] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m is this true?
[01:03:26] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /tell anthand I'll read the forum message

Forum message from AntHand, December 8
Hi Yukarion,

I had a relatively long discussion about the rules with DakkaDok, prompted initially by a question of whether or not one of my new base finding methods was legal or not. Eventually I got the answer that "As a rule, anything that makes finding bases easier than just flying through the nether or getting someone to leak their coordinates is probably not allowed." I was curious if this is an official stance or not, as it seems very repressive to innovation and against the general feel of a semi-anarchy environment. If it is official, then would if be possible to clarify this in the actual /rules? If not, would you be willing to provide a better clarification for why my basefinding method has been deemed illegal whereas others are legal?

Thanks,
Anthand

[01:05:20] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /tell anthand The rules say that abuse of glitches that lead to a significant advantage is not allowed
[01:05:28] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m What exactly counts as a glitch is kind of vague
[01:06:10] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m But generally speaking using a game mechanic that was introduced without the game designers considering it could be abused on this kind of anarchy server, is probably glitch abuse
[01:06:28] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m It does depend on the exact glitch though
[01:06:54] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m Ok, so for example my basefinding method that used the intended 'dogs follow their owner' mechanic is a glitch?
[01:07:11] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m because they made it that way and intended it to be that way, but you and dakka said it was illegal
[01:07:57] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m If I remember correctly, what we said was that you couldn't use mods to do it
[01:08:04] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m and then we disabled teleporting dogs through portals
[01:08:17] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m O_O dakka told me that using any dog method was illegal regardless of mods
[01:09:15] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m One thing to consider is that we don't encourage or support people trying to break the game in any way possible
[01:10:07] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m well yes, but most vanilla anarchy things break the game, like crystal pvp or obsidian farms
[01:10:12] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m are legal
[01:11:00] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m Sure, and in my opinion people try to break the game too much, instead of just playing it
[01:11:26] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m But in terms of enforcing it, it's always a balance
[01:12:18] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m In particular it's about to which degree something destroys the gameplay for others
[01:12:26] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m Lag farms for example
[01:12:48] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m but also exploits that let people find bases
[01:12:56] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m Those things ruin the game too much
[01:13:27] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /r imo it enchances the game
[01:13:34] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m as long as it's vanilla
[01:13:58] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m makes things more exciting, gives people a reason to seek out new mechanics
[01:14:14] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m Something like the lightning triangulation exploit, which effectively gives away everybody's coords, completely breaks the game
[01:14:26] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m We obviously can't let people exploit stuff like that
[01:14:56] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m The primary purpose of this server is to let people play the game, not try to break the game
[01:15:26] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m There are other servers, like 2b2t or scicraft, that are more dedicated to breaking the game
[01:15:44] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m So illegal basefinding methods are those which target literally everyone with no way of escaping?
[01:16:20] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m Well such exploits would very clearly be illegal, but other exploits can be illegal as well
[01:16:37] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m In the end it's a judgment call that has to be made for each exploit
[01:16:49] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m If you want to be safe, ask about an exploit before using it
[01:16:53] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m I just dont want to contact an admin for every new thing I find
[01:16:57] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m But ok


2020-12-15:
[21:00:08] [Server thread/INFO]: ostrich1414 entered /msg AntHand also as admin I have to ask, you sure Yukar said this was legal?
[21:00:25] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m I have a screenshot of him saying that it is legal as long as I do not use mods to assist
[21:00:39] [Server thread/INFO]: ostrich1414 entered /msg AntHand okay, just making sure
[21:00:45] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m However he did imply that he could change his mind at any moment
[21:01:01] [Server thread/INFO]: ostrich1414 entered /msg AntHand aight, cool


Forum message from DakkaDok, January 12
So Anthand just used the dog-head trick to find a major base (again).
Yukar, I hear that you said this was okay. I'm going to argue that it's really not, and that we should disable it ASAP. My main issue with it is that once you have a dog that's linked to an account, that account will never be able to safely base anywhere again. That account will always be trackable, and what's worse, they won't even know that it's happening. I don't think that's good for the server, for basically the same reason that we have a way to get yourself out of a bedtrap. $20 accounts should not be compromisable like this.
In addition to this, Anthand says it's very easy to have other players' dogs stand up, allowing him to teleport them with Portals and completely circumventing that measure.


Forom message from Yukar9, January 13
I see. I thought the countermeasure had fixed this issue. I'll look into other ways to prevent this from being exploited.


2021-01-15:
Note: While I didn't tell AntHand this, patch #2 was already active on the server at this point. By chance, I had asked clipchip to review the patch just minutes before AntHand pinged me:
[01:03:14] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m What do you think of this? https://github.com/C4K3/Misc/commit/75f ... 5994060cf0 (<- this message was to clipchip)


[01:05:43] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /tell Yukarion Hi yuk
[01:06:13] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /tell anthand Hi
[01:06:19] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m I understand that there is (yet again) an issue with my basefinding method?
[01:06:45] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /tell AntHand As I understand Dakka doesn't like using wolves to basehunt
[01:06:49] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m so we're going to patch it out soon
[01:07:16] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m Ok, my question is how do you plan to do that?
[01:07:25] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /tell AntHand I don't know
[01:07:40] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m alright well
[01:08:12] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m you could make it so that they no longer face their owner, but that can be worked around by simply leashing them and watching which direction they walk
[01:08:33] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m If you made them no longer follow the owner it would basically remove pets from the game
[01:09:06] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m I suppose you could remove pets from the portal's code but tbh you could just use the nether to transport them
[01:09:26] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m All of these solutions would likely have workarounds and take effort to implement
[01:09:42] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m On the other side of the coin, it *is* simply an intended feature of the game
[01:10:12] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m While it is definitely powerful, changing it wouldn't make sense according to the rules
[01:10:44] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /tell AntHand It's extremely powerful, ability to track a player indefinitely, with nothing they can do to stop it once you have a wolf
[01:11:09] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m The game designers clearly don't put any effort into protecting people's coords, so I think it's fine for us to patch their issues
[01:11:31] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m there are many ways to avoid being tracked
[01:11:42] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /tell AntHand Once you've lost a wolf, is there really?
[01:11:45] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m yes
[01:12:28] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m Wolves also track targets that they are aggroed against, if you had a permanent chunk loader with an entity you have punched, you can create a decoy that throws off potential trackers
[01:13:16] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m Also, for AFKing, simply going in a cross-dimentionally plugin portal loop will make it appear to someone tracking that the wolf is randomly spinning around
[01:13:33] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m since they dont track across dimentions
[01:14:13] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m anyways I dont really have a say in whether or not it's patched
[01:14:29] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m I guess my real question is: is it still legal to use this method before a patch is implemented?
[01:14:39] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /tell AntHand I suppose
[01:14:43] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m but expect the patch to land today
[01:14:48] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m Alright
[01:15:12] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m Ill let you know if I find any workarounds to the patch
[01:15:36] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m Ok, thanks

[01:59:27] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /tell Yukarion I found a fast travel exploit as a result of the arrow patch
[01:59:39] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /r Ok
[01:59:42] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m is what im doing rn legal?
[01:59:48] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m Probably not
[01:59:58] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m I'd say don't use any new exploits right now
[02:00:22] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m I am following the directions outlined in the announcement, I just want to know if I can use this
[02:00:38] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m No
[02:05:20] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m Just to be clear Im not allowed to shoot myself with punch 2 bow to fly with elytra?
[02:06:27] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /r Yes
[02:06:54] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m You are not allowed to
[02:07:07] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m What the heck

[01:14:29] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m I guess my real question is: is it still legal to use this method before a patch is implemented?
[01:14:39] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /tell AntHand I suppose

[21:00:08] [Server thread/INFO]: ostrich1414 entered /msg AntHand also as admin I have to ask, you sure Yukar said this was legal?
[21:00:25] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m I have a screenshot of him saying that it is legal as long as I do not use mods to assist

[01:07:57] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m If I remember correctly, what we said was that you couldn't use mods to do it
[01:08:04] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m and then we disabled teleporting dogs through portals

[01:03:07] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m I messaged you this on the forums, but dakka told me any basefinding method outside of flying randomly. or getting someone to leak, is illegal

[01:09:15] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m One thing to consider is that we don't encourage or support people trying to break the game in any way possible

clipchip wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:43 pm People keep reading this as permission to use the glitch 'currently' and saying AntHand can't be banned because of it

[01:14:29] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m I guess my real question is: is it still legal to use this method before a patch is implemented?
[01:14:39] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /tell AntHand I suppose

This was written on 2021-01-15, 4 days after AntHand already abused the glitch to raid Three Words, and also after the patch was running on the server meaning Yukar gave him permission to do nothing at the current moment. "Is it legal..." and "Was it legal..." are very different here because of that detail.

Earlier on 2020-12-15:

[21:00:08] [Server thread/INFO]: ostrich1414 entered /msg AntHand also as admin I have to ask, you sure Yukar said this was legal?
[21:00:25] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m I have a screenshot of him saying that it is legal as long as I do not use mods to assist

AntHand here tries to claim he has permission prior to the Three Words raid as long as it does not use a mod. When was this permission granted? According to him it was granted to him on 2020-12-14:

[01:07:57] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m If I remember correctly, what we said was that you couldn't use mods to do it
[01:08:04] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m and then we disabled teleporting dogs through portals

That is a reiteration of the (stupid) rules on the dog exploit before it was patched. I see nowhere in this conversation that grants current permission to use a workaround to the patch. In fact he was explicitly told by Dakka it was not allowed:

[01:03:07] [Server thread/INFO]: AntHand entered /m I messaged you this on the forums, but dakka told me any basefinding method outside of flying randomly. or getting someone to leak, is illegal

And then by Yukar:

[01:09:15] [Server thread/INFO]: Yukarion entered /m One thing to consider is that we don't encourage or support people trying to break the game in any way possible

He might have been able to claim he had been confused and misunderstood what an admin was saying and gotten some mild amount of sympathy, but instead he chose to spend the last few days fully committed to having done absolutely nothing wrong and going as far as attempting to get DakkaDok banned for ever daring to bring this up.
It should now be clear his only defense is twisting the words of admins or just taking them completely out of context.
Ban AntHand

Anthand wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:47 pm Firstly, it's essentially impossible to include every log in a long conversation when making a video

Anthand wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:47 pm Yukarion, if you were active on the server discord, it is clear the absolute devastation upon my own character that Dakka's leaks have caused, and again people are calling for my ban despite it being unwarranted. Burger_Malone has threatened to defile 'every build I have' and Lord1 has sworn to commit himself to making me never have fun again on the server. This is all because an admin broke the rules. Do something about it.

KoriJenkins wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:11 pm

Anthand wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:47 pm Yukarion, if you were active on the server discord, it is clear the absolute devastation upon my own character that Dakka's leaks have caused, and again people are calling for my ban despite it being unwarranted. Burger_Malone has threatened to defile 'every build I have' and Lord1 has sworn to commit himself to making me never have fun again on the server. This is all because an admin broke the rules. Do something about it.

AntHand, your actions caused devastation upon your character. You're the equivalent of a captured robber being mad at a witness for testifying against you even though you were caught on camera.

You aren't entitled to respect or fondness. I didn't get on the boards and cry to Yukar every time Dakka slandered me in chat because I didn't care. If you truly believe you did nothing wrong, you wouldn't care so much about whatever DakkaDok said about you.

You're essentially arguing that DakkaDok should be banned for being mean to you, when the meanness comes entirely as a result of your own actions. Had you simply not exploited, you wouldn't be in this situation. This is of your own making, and why you fail to understand that I do not know.

Restating public information is not admin abuse.

Anthand wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:37 amEven when Burger Malone found the remnants of one of my tracking stations, he was unable to find enough conclusive evidence to either figure out what it was, or to confirm I was behind it.