World Boundary

[FoSchnizzle]

Enjoyment density for a 10k*10k map < Enjoyment density for a 100k*100k map.

[pianiseemo]

Hi everyone, I’ve been busy and haven’t been on these forums (and won’t be on here much in the future either). Just wanted to give a pro-limit view. Whichever side you vote for, please just consider both sides and weigh the arguments side by side.

Worldruler086 gave a strong argument against the limit. His argument (I’ll summarize it) was:

1. The limit means you can’t travel outside of 5k. Furthermore, no massive surface buildings 200k from spawn.
2. All PvP increase has been a bunch of spawnrats punching you with diamond armor.
3. The limit is un-vanilla, so it goes against the server’s vanilla doctrine. Other servers have tried similar things which failed.

Here is my refutal. As an active PvPer who's been on this server from Day 1, I want to offer a different view.

In response to argument #1:
This is what the server was like before the limit, and many who were on will remember it. Log on to server. Look around at your base. Idle. Possibly build something new. Log off.
Does that sound like a PvP server?
Back when we had the first limit debate, people said that was what a PvP server was supposed to be like. It was the threat of PvP that made it a PvP server. It didn’t have to have any PvP, and everyone recognized there was zero PvP. But that was what a "proper vanilla PvP server" was like.

These people found building with the nonexistent threat of PvP exciting. They are perfectly entitled to their opinion. I like building too. But I like to PvP. I come to a PvP server to PvP, to form teams, to fight, perhaps to strategize, to have fun. If I wanted to build only, I’d go to a Creative server or a Survival server.

Before the limit, there was no PvP. Zero. Perhaps every month, I’d finally get to fight an armed guy, and even then, it’d be after much prodding in chat. The only chance there was to PvP was go to spawn and get punched by spawn guys.
Yes, before the limit, there was NO action. Absolutely none.

Worldruler086 is a builder. He says he is limited because he can no longer build epic creations.
I am a PvPer. Most of the server are PvPers. Before the limit, we were even more limited because there was zero PvP.

This is a difficult decision. We must limit either the builders, or the PvPers.
The builders will be somewhat limited with the limit. They can still build, but they will have to make more stealthy buildings (underground). If they want to, they can remain outside of the limit (like worldruler086 is doing) and keep building grand structures unimpaired.
But the PvPers will be catastrophically limited WITHOUT a limit. Say goodbye to any ounce of PvP there ever was. You’ll never use your sword, or even if you get lucky enough to do so, it’ll be on the unarmed spawn rat punching you. That's the inconvenient truth.

In response to argument #2:
Worldruler086 claims that the majority of PvP increase is spawn rats punching you. Worldruler086 has been outside of the limit all this time (and hasn't PvPed for liek, forever). Quite frankly, unless he has magic thousand-block seeing eyes, he shouldn't be the guy to judge the quality of PvP going on.
As one of the most active PvPers on this server, I honestly believe that the limit is the one thing responsible for the good PvP we now have today.

In response to the claim that the PvP increase is in spawn rats: Since the limit has been implemented, there has been little to no increase in spawn rats. I go to spawn daily (several times). Before the limit, a spawn rat had no incentive to make a base (what for? To idle? To build?). Now, because of the limit, you have every motivation to get out, make a base, and then fight for loots and fun. Let's repeat that again: the spawn rat population has not increased.

Quality PvP, on the other hand, has increased DRASTICALLY. Increased by three times, five times, something huge. We don’t have 24/7 action yet, and I’m not saying we need it, but if you want to find a fight, you finally can. Go to spawn, and half the time, there will be diamond armor guys waiting for a fight. Build a castle close to spawn (assas’s team did it) and there WILL be people who come to you if you advertise on chat. World said that the limit meant goodbye to epic structures. I've seen that the limit means "hello" to building a castle or epic structure that will finally be used in a PvP fight or castle defense.
Fighting groups have finally emerged. There is assas’s team. There is airdude’s team. There is my team. There is Imicus’s team. There are more and more teams emerging. They are forming truces, they are becoming enemies, they are fighting frequently, this is what PvP is. If you are in the limit and having trouble finding a fight, tell me and I’ll guarantee you I can find you a PvP fight within hours, at most a few days. Before it would be a few weeks/months.

When we first voted on the limit, people said the it wouldn’t increase PvP. Well, to say it bluntly, they’re wrong. PvP has skyrocketed. There is no basis to the ongoing claim that there’s no PvP or all the PvP is spawnrats punching you (it's the exact opposite). Others have new arguments: the limit forces PvP because there's absolutely nothing else to do (The only thing that you can't do anymore is build huge bases, it's not like your gameplay is fundamentally changed). At least the old argument that the limit would result in all the old anti-limit dudes quitting the server is gone, since the server's population has increased.

In response to argument #3:
Worldruler086, we have different views of this server.
You believe that this server is vanilla. Thus, everything it does should be to remain vanilla. 100% vanilla.
I think that we are vanilla because vanilla is normally fun. But when vanilla is not fun, we should change it. And having zero PvP isn't fun.

None of our anti-hack plug-ins are vanilla. Nor are events. Should we remove them?
Of course not. If we remove the anti-hack plug-ins, the server becomes unplayable. Hackers roam everywhere. There is no fun. And if we remove events, we deny people what they came here for- action, PvP, and fun.

By that same logic, the limit exists for the same reason anti-hack plug-ins exist. Without the limit, there can be no PvP. If you don’t believe me, ask the PvPers who were here before it was implemented.

The limit adds a huge amount to PvP and fun, and takes only a tiny bit from vanilla (Really guys? Just having a map limit doesn’t mean we installed a shit-ton of plug-ins).

For some, Simplicity Creative (what it was like before the limit) turning into Simplicity PvP is a nightmare.
To us, it's a dream.

[YoungsMC]

Enjoyment density for a 10k*10k map < Enjoyment density for a 100k*100k map.

Really? I enjoy PvP.

[FoSchnizzle]

You claim that most of the server are pvp'ers. If this were so, people would be more inclined to fight, I'm sure, not once every month or so. Contradictions. Watch for them.
Oh yeah, and you say that without the limit there can be no pvp or fun? Then why were people on the server before it? And you also say that if people want to build, and only build, they can do so outside the limit. BUT THEY CAN'T. It is against the rules to leave the limit. Wtf.

[YoungsMC]

Oh yeah, and you say that without the limit there can be no pvp or fun? Then why were people on the server before it?

pianiseemo, Xestia, etc. were all about to quit before the idea of a map limit was brought up.

You claim that most of the server are pvp'ers. If this were so, people would be more inclined to fight, I'm sure, not once every month or so. Contradictions. Watch for them.

>Then: No map limit, most of the server isn't inclined to fight and pianiseemo can only find someone armed once a month if he's lucky
>Now: Map limit, a good amount of the server are PvP'ers

Wtf.

Wtf!!!@!!

[pianiseemo]

You claim that most of the server are pvp'ers. If this were so, people would be more inclined to fight, I'm sure, not once every month or so. Contradictions. Watch for them.
Oh yeah, and you say that without the limit there can be no pvp or fun? Then why were people on the server before it? And you also say that if people want to build, and only build, they can do so outside the limit. BUT THEY CAN'T. It is against the rules to leave the limit. Wtf.

1. FoS claims most of us are NOT PvPers. Very simple. Go on the server, and ask if the people came here to PvP or to sit in a hole all day long.

We are PvPers. Why wasn't there PvP before? Because not only were there very few people on the server (since most new players would quit after realizing there was no PvP minus punching each other), the existing player base was all about 200k away from each other.

The next thing you're going to say is clearly they wanted to be 200k away, so they clearly disliked PvP. Here's the reason why. Everyone wants their base to be 200k away so its safe. Then, they want everyone else to be at spawn so they can raid them. This is a case of Nash's equilibrium. Nobody likes getting raided, everyone likes having the OPTION of peace, but everyone wants to raid others and always have the OPTION of killing others.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Without the limit, there's little raiding and even less killing. Choose one: Do you want some risk to yourselves and your pixels of diamond so you can have fun? Or do you want to keep your nice blue round pixels at the expense of action?

2. There were people on the server beforehand, but not all of them were having fun, certainly not as much fun as they wanted to. Many of them were ready to quit. That is why we complained and brought up the limit. If they were all having the fun they wanted without a limit, why would they suggest a limit, and why did the limit win? In your own words: "Contradictions. Watch for them."

If the # of players on a server means how fun it is, let's put it this way: There were people beforehand- yeah, very very few people (<20, often 5) on an inactive server. Now we have 30 players online most of the time.

Also, when the limit was first implemented, you had every option of not going within its borders. This is what I mean. If you dislike the limit, and are currently outside of it, you can stay outside of it for as long as you want and build as you please (like worldruler086 is doing). There are no restrictions.

The newer players don't have the option of going outside of the limit. Sadly, the guys who really like building and dislike PvPing will leave the server. The alternative (what we had before) was, the guys who really liked PvPing left the server: there was zero action minus punching another spawn rat. You're going to lose one group no matter what, and there's nothing we can do about it.

In response to the "limit is limiting argument," I'll repeat myself.

Worldruler086 is a builder. He says he is limited because he can no longer build epic creations.
I am a PvPer. Most of the server are PvPers. Before the limit, we were even more limited because there was zero PvP.

One side is going to be limited no matter what, so I don't think saying that the builders are limited is a valid argument.

Please scroll up to see my rebuttal of worldruler086's post against the limit.

[worldruler086]

1. The limit DOES in fact limit what we can or cannot do. most of which it does so indirectly. We all know how server mechanics work, particularly with a pvp server such as this one. People who make houses on the surface and trust people too openly tend to get weeded out. especially if the limit is here. So let's say you're a new person. you go roaming around spawn, see a few crater houses, and you decide to group up with someone. because the limit is at 5k, you reach the base in a 3 day trip, and are greeted by a small room in the bowels of the Cubeworld. You prefer to make surface forts, something on par with a castle, and you know that even though making a surface structure is probably not the best idea, you know that if it's a good distance away, you'll be fine for a few weeks. maybe even a month, if you are secretive. Sadly, the limit prevents you from going a good distance away, and the limit would actually make it EASIER to find said castle. let me explain.

Imagine you're on a scouting mission, heading due west until you're close to the limit. now if we looked at a cardinal direction, you would have 5 directions to go. north, northeast, east, southeast, and south. you can't go the other three due to the limit. in other words, any bases near you have a better chance to be found because of this. if we didn't have a limit, we would have 8 directions, and we would have no enclosed area where people have to be. people would be harder to find because we wouldn't have much a clue onto where they are. In other words, the limit (and I understand it was designed to do this) actually encloses us two main ways. we can't go 5k from spawn, and we have a better chance of being discover because we're in an enclosed area. I know some people may like this, and I understand why they would, but isn't the thrill of pvp finding someone when you DIDN'T expect to find anyone? I'm not much a pvp person, but nothing makes me more happy then finding an old base. hell, it may be occupied!

The limit was set at 5k because we knew it would have to be either bigger or smaller at one point. Yes, we have a better chance of finding someone when we're in the world boundary. Some people do like it that way. If your chances were 0 you're playing SP. I don't expect to find someone out 5k, but if there wasn't a world boundary I'd expect not to find someone.

2. The limit has changed pvp, but not in the best of ways. The thing is, I've noticed when I stayed here a month ago that pvp, at least to me, seemed to increase in size, yet lower in quality. Let me explain, and before anyone argues, this is pvp in the general form. I'm sure there are exceptions. I've noticed most pvp comes from someone in diamond/iron armor roaming around spawn looking for scraps getting attacked by spawn rats. Spawn rats are sadly not the type to go out and actually make a good fight. They don't even drop anything. And they just punch you and call you a faggot spawnkiller. I understand that this isn't the total of fights. I'll be generous and say this is roughly 75% of them. the other 25% can be someone actually finding someone well off (like youngs pointed out in his story), an event (which I'd say is exempt from saying "pvp has increased because of limit", as we don't need a limit in order to do this), and a set fight (which is sort of on the fence of "pvp increased because of limit", as more people are at spawn to do this, but those who do it would probably do it without a limit). Obviously the majority of the pvp isn't really sport, and even without the limit, I don't think the spawn rats would go away. That said, I'm sure the limit is exacerbating the issue.

I don't get it. Where's the part about PvP being worse? So far CTS has created one fight. I like events but like Xestia said, it's not an alternative that will work just as well as the map limit.

3. The limit isn't on par with the "vanilla doctrine". Ok, stop. Right now. I know what you're going to say. "The server isn't vanilla, it's psuedo-vanilla." I know, I get it, the server is having an identity crisis. And the limit was really the mask for the server to wear. Realize this is less a "con" of the limit and more a personal opinion I have. Let me make this clear, this isn't my server, this isn't your server, this is yukar's server. in other words, whatever server he wants it to be, it will be. So he decided majority rule (read as slight majority rule). As I said before, the limit brought up a topic that we didn't want to bring up because it would literally tear the server apart. Let me explain. Again.

When I came to simplicity, it was what I would classify as a survival-vanilla-anarchy server. Survival meant we faced mobs at night, and had to get our own shit. Vanilla meant we would refrain from using mods that interfered with gameplay, and try to stick with what the game started out with. Anarchy meant that killing, stealing, and being an utter asshole was allowed, and admins were only used for police against hackers and other ne'er'do-wells. I love these kinds of server, mainly for their unpredictability. I love looking at the cultures people make with clans and town. I love the politics and the voracity of wars between groups. I love the ever present danger from the most unpredictable thing imaginable, MAN. I don't use it as my "personal singleplayer". (Although, I will admit, I do like putting time in my creations. That said, I prefer to be a more "noble" force. I found empires, I don't destroy them) I don't choose to use this as my creative map. I don't choose to stay here because I love reading what the trolls say (though they make it SO tempting). I DO (or, rather, did) play here because I felt that this server did something NO PLUG-IN could do, which was seem ALIVE. And to me, the limit was entirely AGAINST that. I know, if a server is at the brink of death (which I honestly didn't think it was, but apparently "I don't pvp, so I wouldn't understand"), we should tighten our belts, swallow our pride, and do things that we wouldn't normally do to get more people. But to me, the limit was too much. It was beyond too much. It changed the server into something unrecognizable. Actually, it WAS recognizable, but I saw it somewhere else.

Let me Explain (that seems to be my catch phrase...), I played on ANOTHER survival-vanilla-anarchy server prior to this one, and it did something similar. Certain pvp-centric players told the admin that the server was starting to become boring and dull, so we did something to add pvp. We added factions. I stayed, despite my hatred toward the mod, as I had many friends there. We had a vote (two weeks after the mod was already installed) and we won, or rather, didnt. The vote was clear, 24 against, 16 for. However, we had many false votes. One of the pro-factions players talked to the admin, who decided to keep the mod. I later found out he bribed him. And he did so plenty more times. A few bedrock bases. a few admin commands such as teleporting to someone. ADMINSHIP. I know this doesn't involve this server, but I want to make it clear that this topic scratches at old wounds for me. I loved this server. And I still wish to love it. I don't want it to go the same route as that server. I know it won't, or at least not entirely, as there are a few variables that are different. We have a good admin, unlike the one who listened to money rather then wisdom. We have a slightly better community (I'll be honest, reading this forum makes me remember the last thread for this. This is a disgrace, everyone who isn't already acting like adults, please do.). And we didn't add factions, but rather the next worst thing.

The server's PvP was extinct. We've already tried and are still doing advertising. I've been voting daily on the server lists, created a banner, etc. I'd be willing to settle for an alternative that creates just as much PvP as the limit does, but I'm not going to change my vote and hope that advertising will keep PvP running. If a new regular can go out far enough to build a castle then that new regular hasn't created as much PvP as he/she could have. Advertising might help, but advertising in combination with the map limit has created enough PvP for an enjoyable anarchy server.

Are some of us still trying to say that the limit hasn't created more PvP?
Population Density for a 10k*10k map > Population Density for a 100k*100k map

I'd like to first make the point that those three points are why I'm against the limit, not for three reasons why the limit is bad. Instead, three reasons why I *specifically* thought it was bad. If you want to break apart those points, fine. I'll do my best to defend them (though I'll admit that they are not the best arguments.)

1. You missed the point where I said that some people agree that this is indeed a good idea. If there weren't people who thought this, the limit never would have passed. You also need to realize that without a limit, there will always be the group that wants to go 55 bajillion km out. You can't stop them unless we have some sort of legislation such as the limit. The point I was making is that for a server to say it's vanilla, even the more erroneous "pseudo-vanilla", it cannot, under any circumstances, have any plugins that interfere with a certain playstyle. And this limit does indeed limit certain playstyles. Before you say it, because I know you will, yes, I know the limit doesn't force us to pvp. But it does force us to be closer and more susceptible to random encounters. However, I'd like to view this on a more hypothetical account, and say that these random encounters are actually not "true" random encounters, and instead engineered ones. I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing, but it does make the server consistently inconsistent. If you don't get what I mean, I'm referring to the fact that we have no idea what will happen, but the chances of our base being a crater when we log back is a possibility. It's a much bigger possibility now that the limit has us in an enclosed area.

Remember, this argument, out of all of them, is a PERSONAL one. I know the limit makes us more enclosed, it was DESIGNED to do that. It'd be like me complaining about how fast cars go, and they're designed to go fast. Continuing that analogy, I'm worried about the fact that having fast cars means that car accidents are bad. In other words, the car (the limit) takes us places very fast (increases pvp) but also can get in bad car accidents (alienates players who do not like a far grittier pvp that THEY ARE NOT IN PARTIAL CONTROL OVER). Do you see what I'm saying? The reason players roam out ISN'T (99.9% of the time) to play "single player". It's to get a feel of the server politics, make a town, maybe, or just try to keep away from raiders. To those players, being away from spawn is simply travelling to greener pastures. NOT like how some of those for the limit have been saying as simply "playing single player". Now I'm not saying that there aren't players who aren't doing that. But I am saying that you shouldn't generalize roughly half the votes of the limit fiasco as "single player players".

2. I'll admit I'm not much a pvpper, and I've been absent from this server because I despise the limit. I don't know the ebbs and flows of how the pvp works. So I won't defend my point as much here as I'm not there pvpping, so I have no idea of the quality other then through my own biases. If you want to clarify, please do. I'll try to view it through an open mind.

3. My point here is I hate when certain players morph the server into their own playstyle. The reason why I like anarchy is that there is no "right" playstyle. Make a clan, hoard diamonds, be a petty raider, be a warlord, be a hermit who stays neutral, be a mercenary, there is no "right" way to play. The limit basically changed it to "play how you want to play, but stay within 5k...or else". We even went so far as BANNING players who found ways passed the limit. But we still let those who were outside stay outside. Way I see it, either everyone is allowed outside, or everyone gets inside. The compromise actually worked against us. The players outside were unable to pvp (Wait, the limit was supposed to increase pvp! See my point? IT WAS SELECTIVE) and their playstyle became a paranoid isolationist's wet dream. And it only gets worse when these players are demonized for their playstyle. Why do you think I have so much frustration toward players who act like we're the selfish ones? We aren't asking for legislation to suit our playstyle! (minus now, I suppose. but this is more trying to return to our roots) This is just outrageous.

I know you care for the server, and I know you're trying everything you can to make sure it succeeds. But please, PLEASE, look at this from OUR point of view. I'll admit it, I'm a player who enjoys going out a few kilometers making a small hut. I don't make anything extravagant. Not unless I have a real reason to. (as in, other players will see it) The limit puts a stake into the heart of my playstyle. So I have two choices, adapt, or leave. I chose the latter option, as I'd rather find another vanilla server. You want to know why that pisses me off? vanilla servers rarely stay vanilla. They always change. And I always watch them change. This server is no different, besides the fact we had a vote on it. I know what you're going to say, "we did this to increase pvp". No, pvp is not the only reason people come here, and not the only enjoyment people get out of anarchy. Often I find the threat of pvp being much more interesting then the actual pvp. The limit was made to encourage a certain playstyle. It didn't force us to that playstyle, but it did force us from the playstyle of being farther out. Let me say that again. THE LIMIT PREVENTED US FROM PLAYING A CERTAIN WAY. now, granted, one of those playstyles was going 230510512-km out, but another was people going roughly 20k out and making a city that would be the equivalent of Jericho, or something, in the olden times. And this city would decide to interact with the outside world, even trying to become a superpower. Why go 20k out? well, it's more safe, for starters. secondly, the best force is a force felt but not seen. See what I'm getting at? A force felt but not seen feels much more powerful.

Recap: I don't consider these being the best arguments against the limit, but they are arguments against it nonetheless.

[FoSchnizzle]

Piani, people are threatening to quit NOW because of the boundary. Stfu, get your point across without sounding like an utter asshole, to quote world

[pianiseemo]

Piani, people are threatening to quit NOW because of the boundary. Stfu, get your point across without sounding like an utter asshole, to quote world

Giving a logical argument equates to being an asshole, and I need to stfu because you can't stand an opposing opinion. Whoa there.

[YoungsMC]

Piani, people are threatening to quit NOW because of the boundary. Stfu, get your point across without sounding like an utter asshole, to quote world

Pianiseemo has an opinion. He has a logical argument. This is a thread about logic and people's opinions. He shouldn't be told to "Stfu".