SimPvP and its Future (manifesto) [long rant]

[clipchip]

some of you guys are alright. don't go to segoria tomorrow

This is in response to Kori's thread about adding more admins, although this will be irrelevant to his main topic of actually picking admins so I made my own.

Essentially, around 1 PM a flyhacker logged in and proceeded to go on a joyride for an hour before logging off. He wasn't jailed until about 3 hours later when Yukarion logged on and I gave him the info about the guy.
While that doesn't seem like a situation that was all that bad, it's more bad when you realize that he essentially had a 4 hour window to do whatever he wanted to whatever he found and nobody could've stopped him.

While it's true this is bad, will adding more admins actually solve it? Definitely it will lower the waiting time for blatant hackers to be stopped, but vpns exist and they have alts as well. Someone banned for xraying a portal can go back there a week later while admins are offline. Is the solution to just fill an entire 24 hour time slot with active admins that never log out and watch all players constantly? Does that not sound completely untenable?

Appointing new admins might help a little, but distracts from these real problems plaguing the server right now, and if they got fixed then large windows of time without an active admin would be a far smaller issue:

1. Yukarion appears to not value the time regular players put into the server whatsoever
   • If an xrayer, flyhacker, or glitch abuser finds a base and steals everything, blows it up, or leaks the coordinates to his friends with vpns who will raid it later the admins do absolutely nothing to help besides banning the cheater. Are the rules designed to protect regular players on the server? Or do they only exist to let admins get a quick power trip by enacting "justice"? (See: Phrasing's blowing up 8 year old bases with duped items, Wilburia being xrayed recently, countless more bases)
   • Complete lack of foresight with AntHand's wolf exploit and then continued mishandling on a level that borders admin abuse
     • Yukar initially believes that if the direction is inaccurate it's okay, but if you get a very accurate direction (64-bit floating point number) then that would be cheating.
     • It's not exactly as inaccurate as he probably thinks (1/10 of a degree just by using f3 seems extremely high to me) but regardless of accuracy, a simple triangulated search will lead you to a base every time with a minimal amount of effort. And as Dakka explained this can obviously be used again and again forever as long as the player does not purchase a new account.
     • Immediately after allowing the exploit once, AntHand finds and "annexes" Wilburia making the members all quit building there and causing some of them to stop playing on the server entirely.
     • At this point Yukar seems to realize (albeit too late) that this exploit is incredibly powerful, shouldn't be allowed, attempts to fix it from working, and makes it against the rules according to Dakka's forum PM
     • AntHand finds an "easy workaround" after assuring the admins on threat of a ban that the proposed fix would break his method.
     • Yukar supposedly changes his mind about disallowing the wolf exploit and gives AntHand explicit permission to use his new workaround and continue raiding anyone he pleases. It's unclear why Yukar spent his own time fixing it the first time and making it against the rules if he was actually OK with people still using it.
     • AntHand with the help of ostrich1414 (who was informed that Yukar gave him explicit permission to continue using the wolf exploit as long as it used no mods) immediately find and raid Lord1 and Tenced's base yet again ruining hundreds of hours of work.
     • Like a patient suffering from dementia Yukar comes to the conclusion yet again that allowing this exploit is a bad idea, creates a brand new fix for it, and bans it for a second time.
     • Of course because AntHand had explicit permission from Yukarion himself each time he used it to ruin bases on the server, no punishments were handed out.
     • I would welcome Yukar to explain anything I got wrong about this; although I know it's unlikely he responds to this post at all, and outside of brand new evidence being revealed even less likely he can reasonably explain his actions while AntHand remains unbanned.
     • A possible explanation is maybe Yukar just really hates Lord1?
   • Even if playing on simpvp is a waste of time in general, I think everyone could agree they don't want their time invested in the server to be ruined by Yukarion bending the rules in completely unpredictable ways. What guarantee do we have that he won't change his mind in the future and allow something that ends with one of our otherwise safe bases being destroyed?
   • Ignoring the rules themselves being mishandled by an admin, why is it the standard to not restore anything lost to cheaters who have been banned? If players invest thousands of hours into a server they should have some assurance that an admin will take the (relatively small amount of) time to restore (and possibly move) items/bases lost to rule breakers.
2. Lack of transparency in the rules, difficulty reaching admins
   • Admins besides Yukar seem to rarely know the answer to common questions, worsened by Yukar himself being hard to reach, not using the simpvp discord (reasonable discord is shit), but also not regularly responding to forum posts.
   • When an admin does attempt to answer things by themselves, the lack of clearly defined rules means they often contradict what Yukar himself will say about the same thing, this in turn means other admins are less and less likely to even attempt to explain the rules and you are just told to ask Yukar yourself (Who as mentioned is hard to reach).
   • I'm not suggesting Yukar be available 24/7 to answer dumb questions, but the rules should be clear enough that 2 admins with the same information should come to the same result when asked a question. If Yukar has a concrete thought process he goes through when deciding something then he needs to make that available so all admins can follow it reliably.
3. Preventing the possibility to cheat is better than just adding more "policemen"
   • As stated earlier it's unreasonable to think the best way to keep the server free of impactful cheating is to have admins playing 24 hours a day, every day, constantly on the lookout.
   • A reliable anti-xray plugin for even just portals would do far more good than adding multiple new admins.
   • It's too easy to cheat in a subtle way and get away with it. Mods that detect if a chunk is new are obviously not allowed, but how would you actually detect this and ban someone using it? This kind of thought can be applied to more than just new chunks though. What kind of prevention/detection do the admins have to actually enforce the rules they make? If any exists at all, it could definitely be improved. The server is incredibly well equipped to detect fly hackers, simple xrayers, etc, but the real problem is cheaters who are smart about hiding it now.
   • I've suggested this before, but automatically deleting chunks that were only loaded for short periods of time (such as when you are traveling) would go a long way to prevent subtle cheating.

In my opinion properly addressing these problems would have much better results than just adding more admins who most likely won't have console access and will be forced to defer endlessly to Yukar when a real problem occurs anyway. That's not to say doing both would be a bad thing either, but who would actually sign up to be an admin while these problems exist with no implementation of a solution in sight?

[KoriJenkins]

I think, to quote AntHand of all people, even if something is untenable, in this case admins monitoring the server for 24 hours a day, does that really mean we shouldn't still strive to get there? Or at least get closer?

I do think in response to point 1 that some amount of effort should be put into restoring and reversing griefs conducted through illegal means. If hackers discovered that even griefing on this server illegally was pointless, you'd see a decline in their motivation to continue trying.

Transparency has always been the biggest issue in my eyes. Not feeling like there's an explanation for problems. One thing I think people dramatically overexaggerate is how "difficult" it is to contact Yukarion. Outside of Sim, it is, but I've actually found him rather receptive to most questions when he logs on.

Deleting previously loaded chunks is a good solution to smaller minor hacks. I do not think, however, that the main solution to not being able to reach 24 hours of coverage is to just make more admins. If you did what I said in point 1, that is reversing illegal griefs, you'd pretty much eliminate the need.

Alternatively having the whitelist turn on automatically when there's not an admin online is possible as well.

The main reason I made the post to begin with to try and force the issue is ostrich's mental health. Not joking either. It isn't fair to put the burden of managing an entire server on him, and it's not what he agreed to when he decided to become 1 of 4 admins (now 2). If we beefed the count up to 5 or 6, he could log off and feel at ease, and spend time doing things with his family and actual life.

The admin team should not be so understaffed that the departure or absence of 1 admin makes the others' lives a living hell.

[Zepheron]

clip's suggestions are good, especially the bits concerning compensation and subtle hacks, and what Kori raises is very true. As well as reforming the admin/cheater system, I think that lag prevention plugins need implementing too, however the priority is definitely the cheater issue.

[SkullerG]

I've suggested this before, but automatically deleting chunks that were only loaded for short periods of time (such as when you are traveling) would go a long way to prevent subtle cheating.

This is the only thing I disagree with. Deleting old chunks just blatantly destroys the purpose of following chunk trails following older versions. In real honesty why you want them gone is to most likely eradicate the possibilities of someone finding your base. If you are this worried about it have better protection and fly to your location in a safer manner. Otherwise, very well worded clip.

[Burger]

automatically deleting chunks that were only loaded for short periods of time (such as when you are traveling) would go a long way to prevent subtle cheating.

I'm not sure what this means, would it make basehunting by following chunk trails impossible? This would be cringe.

[KoriJenkins]

I've suggested this before, but automatically deleting chunks that were only loaded for short periods of time (such as when you are traveling) would go a long way to prevent subtle cheating.

This is the only thing I disagree with. Deleting old chunks just blatantly destroys the purpose of following chunk trails following older versions. In real honesty why you want them gone is to most likely eradicate the possibilities of someone finding your base. If you are this worried about it have better protection and fly to your location in a safer manner. Otherwise, very well worded clip.

He wants it removed because realistically some trails can only be followed through use of exploits or hacks.

[Yukar9]

I'll briefly address point 1. I didn't know the wolf thing was exploitable again until Dakka told me, on January 13th? Why didn't I ask Dakka about it? Because I didn't think it was exploitable.

Lack of transparency: I've always had the belief that vague rules makes it harder to cheat the admins. Does that sometimes lead to unfair outcomes? Maybe. If you want to improve the rules, please do so yourself. Just as Kori and others have done recently to try to clarify the rules. Instead of asking admins to do things for you, just do it yourself. We had the "Interpretations" section on the wiki for several years, but nobody but myself ever added anything to it. I just recently removed it to use Kori's page instead.

Restoring bases griefed by cheaters: I don't have an opinion on this. If people think this should become policy, suggest it?

Preventing cheating: I absolutely agree it's best to make it impossible to cheat rather than police people who do cheat. This is exactly why I've personally written patches for exploits. Not all issues are fixed, but you're welcome to fix the unfixed issues yourself. All our plugins and most of our configs are public precisely so that players can fix the issues they consider to be important. And we have accepted the vast majority of patches submitted to us. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the admins to fix everything, especially when you have everything you need to fix it yourself. I've been saying since 1.13 that it'd be awesome if somebody could get anti x-ray working for portals.

If there are things the admins can do to make it easier for people to contribute to the server, then I'd love to hear.

[clipchip]

I'll briefly address point 1. I didn't know the wolf thing was exploitable again until Dakka told me, on January 13th? Why didn't I ask Dakka about it? Because I didn't think it was exploitable.

It would be fair to say if you weren't aware of the exploit until January 13th you absolutely didn't give AntHand permission to use it then, right?

I've always had the belief that vague rules makes it harder to cheat the admins.

You've clearly been cheated, anyone who reads the logs can see this, but you appear to still defend him for some reason. Why is defending AntHand when he was clearly in the wrong more important than all the bases he ruined? He's not allowed to continue using the exploit but do we even have any confirmation he doesn't have portals set up to multiple other bases he hasn't raided yet?

2021-02-03 from the server:
<Yukarion> AntHand let's be clear, you were dishonest in the way you asked the question on December 14
<Yukarion> If somebody were to ask for permission in that way again, they would be banned

Did you seriously just add an absurd new rule along the lines of "You can't knowingly deceive admins when asking questions?" or did he just get a free pass for something "somebody else" would be banned for? This is why people are now asking for clearer rules because as said before, you are being cheated by players and are letting people get away with anything as long as they are the first person to do it.

[KoriJenkins]

I'll briefly address point 1. I didn't know the wolf thing was exploitable again until Dakka told me, on January 13th? Why didn't I ask Dakka about it? Because I didn't think it was exploitable.

It would be fair to say if you weren't aware of the exploit until January 13th you absolutely didn't give AntHand permission to use it then, right?

I've always had the belief that vague rules makes it harder to cheat the admins.

You've clearly been cheated, anyone who reads the logs can see this, but you appear to still defend him for some reason. Why is defending AntHand when he was clearly in the wrong more important than all the bases he ruined? He's not allowed to continue using the exploit but do we even have any confirmation he doesn't have portals set up to multiple other bases he hasn't raided yet?

2021-02-03 from the server:
<Yukarion> AntHand let's be clear, you were dishonest in the way you asked the question on December 14
<Yukarion> If somebody were to ask for permission in that way again, they would be banned

Did you seriously just add an absurd new rule along the lines of "You can't knowingly deceive admins when asking questions?" or did he just get a free pass for something "somebody else" would be banned for? This is why people are now asking for clearer rules because as said before, you are being cheated by players and are letting people get away with anything as long as they are the first person to do it.

Idk what you expect him to do at this point. Yukar made it clear when he added onto rule 3 after that Slash/Sellout thing that a rule can be expanded without retroactively punishing people who violated it.

By saying "if somebody asks to do it again" he's saying going forward.

The only thing that could've been done differently in this scenario would've been DakkaDok forbidding AntHand from using the exploit until he spoke to Yukarion and also demanding to know exactly how it worked. Essentially "Don't do this anymore until I talk to Yukarion" and assuming Dakka knew the extent of the exploit, Yukar would've likely not allowed it had he known, but he didn't.

[Yukar9]

Yeah, maybe that was the wrong call. Maybe he should have been banned.

If you're expecting the "right" (for whatever definition of right) decision to be made every time, you have unrealistic expectations. If you expect every decision to be one that makes you personally happy, then you're delusional.

You know what sucks about being an admin? It's not dealing with cheaters. It's not being asked the same stupid question every single day. It's having people you've known for years throw tantrums because they don't like a decision you've made. It's having people berate you in chat for 15 minutes because you patched an exploitable bug in the events plugin. It's having people spam whataboutisms and accusing me of being biased and unfair because ost said something wrong one time 6 weeks ago.

Nobody wants to deal with that kind crap. Nobody wants to spend hours listening to every side of some heated, and frankly bs, argument. At some point a decision just has to be made and then be done with it. If you're expecting more than that then your expectations are both unrealistic and unreasonably demanding.