World Boundary

[FoSchnizzle]

You saw what i said before. Quit being an asshole. Hell, those weren't even my words.

[RevStoningpot]

If the only argument you guys have is that there was zero pvp before the limit then your argument is based on a lie. Back when the server was capping out at 50 and people were killing each other constantly, there was no limit. Which means any loss of pvp had nothing to do with there not being a limit. And the limit has not restored former pvp levels. These are the facts as i know them not opinions or guesses. if you would like to continue making outlandish claims like "Before the limit there was quite literally no pvp, at all." then i guess you can go ahead but try to offer up some facts once and a while.

[pianiseemo]

If the only argument you guys have is that there was zero pvp before the limit then your argument is based on a lie. Back when the server was capping out at 50 and people were killing each other constantly, there was no limit. Which means any loss of pvp had nothing to do with there not being a limit. And the limit has not restored former pvp levels. These are the facts as i know them not opinions or guesses. if you would like to continue making outlandish claims like "Before the limit there was quite literally no pvp, at all." then i guess you can go ahead but try to offer up some facts once and a while.

Rev, not to be mean, but for a lack of better way to phrase this, you even admitted yourself you haven't PvPed in months and it doesn't interest you... if you go inside the limit, you'll see how PvP has changed. I saw with my own eyes that there was literally zero PvP before the limit, and that since, it has picked up tremendously.

In the summer (a pretty long time ago, might I say), the server was capping out at 50.
Even then, the PvP was spawn rats killing each other (remember the big spawn? And how literally 20 people camped there all the time?) So "quality PvP" levels, aka actual fights between armed guys, was very low. It was hard to find a real PvP fight even then.

Since the summer, people moved more and more out (which makes sense, Nash's equilibrium again, and this has happened on most PvP servers) and the little quality PvP there was dropped to nonexistent levels.

Before the limit (for 3 months) PvP was nonexistent.

What I'm saying are not lies. Many will back me up on this.

The limit has restored quality PvP levels to record highs. The kill messages haven't reached the levels of the summer (which were artificially inflated by loads of spawn campers), but PvP is skyrocketing. And if we remove the limit, we know PvP to drop to former levels, that is, nothing.

so youngs is taking over for all of pianiseemo's douche bagery?

Just had to quote that post. Too funny. =P

[FoSchnizzle]

The whole decision is based off of opinions. Opinion can be swayed by fact, but it all comes down to what you as a player want for the server. Who we're trying to convince here is a bit blurred, but we still argue. I, for one, hold no opinion to this. If the limit has done what it was there to do, keep it. If not, remove it. I am fine with playing either way, but i would like, even better, the current server map, limit and all, and the secondary temp server map, no limit and all to both be kept and used.

[pianiseemo]

The whole decision is based off of opinions. Opinion can be swayed by fact, but it all comes down to what you as a player want for the server. Who we're trying to convince here is a bit blurred, but we still argue. I, for one, hold no opinion to this. If the limit has done what it was there to do, keep it. If not, remove it. I am fine with playing either way, but i would like, even better, the current server map, limit and all, and the secondary temp server map, no limit and all to both be kept and used.

I like the idea of having two servers. It'll be hard to get that passed though, and there's probably some monetary concerns involved.

Piani Stfu, get your point across without sounding like an utter asshole, to quote world

o 0

[pianiseemo]

Hi everyone, I’ve been busy and haven’t been on these forums (and won’t be on here much in the future either). Just wanted to give a pro-limit view. Whichever side you vote for, please just consider both sides and weigh the arguments side by side.

Worldruler086 gave a strong argument against the limit. His argument (it was long, so I’ll summarize it) was:

1. The limit means you can’t travel outside of 5k. Furthermore, no massive surface buildings 200k from spawn. (True)
2. All PvP increase has been a bunch of spawnrats punching you with diamond armor (quite frankly, a huge lie).
3. The limit is un-vanilla, so it goes against the server’s vanilla doctrine. Other servers have tried similar things which failed. (But clearly it has worked exceptionally on here)

HERE IS MY REFUTAL. As an active PvPer who's been on this server from Day 1, I really want to set the facts straight.

In response to argument #1:
This is what the server was like before the limit, and I’m sure many of you remember it. Log on to server. Look around at your base. Idle. Possibly build something new. Log off.
Does that sound like a PvP server to you?
Back when we had the first limit debate, people said that was what a PvP server was supposed to be like. It was the threat of PvP that made it a PvP server. It didn’t have to have any PvP, and everyone recognized there was zero PvP. But that was what a "proper vanilla PvP server" was like.

These people found building with the nonexistent threat of PvP exciting. I like building too. But I like to PvP. I come to a PvP server to PvP, to form teams, to fight, perhaps to strategize, to have fun. If I wanted to build, I’d go to a Creative server or a Survival server. Not here.

Before the limit, there was no PvP. Zero. Perhaps every month, I’d finally get to fight an armed guy, and even then, it’d be after much prodding in chat. The only chance there was to PvP was go to spawn and get punched by spawn guys.
Yes, before the limit, there was NO action. Absolutely none.

Worldruler086 is a builder. He says he is limited because he can no longer build epic creations.
I am a PvPer. Most of the server are PvPers. Before the limit, we were even more limited because there was zero PvP.

This is a difficult decision. We must limit either the builders, or the PvPers.
The builders will be somewhat limited with the limit. They can still build, but they will have to make more stealthy buildings (underground). If they want to, they can remain outside of the limit (like worldruler086 is doing) and keep building grand structures unimpaired.
But the PvPers will be catastrophically limited WITHOUT a limit. Say goodbye to any ounce of PvP there ever was. You’ll never use your sword, or even if you get lucky enough to do so, it’ll be on the unarmed spawn rat punching you. That's the inconvenient truth.

In response to argument #2:
Worldruler086 claims that the majority of PvP increase is spawn rats punching you. Apparently, worldruler086 knows the quality and quantity of PvP going on within the limit even though he's been outside of the limit all this time (and hasn't PvPed since forever). Quite frankly, unless he has magic thousand-block seeing eyes, he shouldn't be the guy to judge the quality of PvP going on.
As one of the most active PvPers on this server, I know that the limit is the one thing responsible for the good PvP we now have today.

In response to World’s claim that the PvP increase is in spawn rats: Since the limit has been implemented, there has been little to no increase in spawn rats. I go to spawn daily (several times). Before the limit, a spawn rat had no incentive to make a base (what for? To idle? To build?). Now, because of the limit, you have every motivation to get out, make a base, and then fight for loots and fun. Let's repeat that again: the spawn rat population has not increased.

Quality PvP, on the other hand, has increased DRASTICALLY. Increased by three times, five times, something huge. We don’t have 24/7 action yet, and I’m not saying we need it, but if you want to find a fight, you finally can. Go to spawn, and half the time, there will be diamond armor guys waiting for a fight. Build a castle close to spawn (assas’s team did it) and there WILL be people who come to you if you advertise on chat. World said that the limit meant goodbye to epic structures. I say that the limit means hello to build a castle or epic structure that will finally be used in a PvP fight or castle defense.
Fighting groups have finally emerged. There is assas’s team. There is airdude’s team. There is my team. There is Imicus’s team. There are more and more teams emerging. They are forming truces, they are becoming enemies, they are fighting frequently, this is what PvP is. If you are in the limit and having trouble finding a fight, tell me and I’ll guarantee you I can find you a PvP fight within hours, at most a few days. Before it would be a few weeks/months.

When we first voted on the limit, people said the it wouldn’t increase PvP. Well, they’re wrong. PvP has skyrocketed. Now some still claim there’s no PvP or all the PvP is spawnrats punching you. Some others have decided to change arguments: the limit apparently forces PvP because there's absolutely nothing else to do (as if there was stuff to do before). Fortunately, nobody has stuck to the old argument that the limit would result in all the old anti-limit dudes quitting the server, since the server's population, if anything, has increased.
Who do you trust more to tell you the limit’s effect on PvP, or on this server? An active PvPer who’s constantly traveling throughout the limit, and who's been on this server since Day 1? Or a guy who makes good arguments, but lives a hundred thousand blocks away from spawn and hasn’t fought a PvP fight in months?

In response to argument #3:
Worldruler086, we simply have different views of this server.
You claim that this server is vanilla. Thus, everything it does should be to remain vanilla. 100% vanilla.
I say that we are vanilla because vanilla is normally fun. But when vanilla is not fun, we should change it. And having zero PvP isn't fun.
Do you come to this server to pray to the god of vanilla? Or do you come here to have fun?

None of our anti-hack plug-ins are vanilla. Nor are events. Should we remove them?
Of course not. If we remove the anti-hack plug-ins, the server becomes unplayable. Hackers roam everywhere. There is no fun. And if we remove events, we deny people what they came here for- action, PvP, and fun.

By that same logic, the limit exists for the same reason anti-hack plug-ins exist. Without the limit, there can be no PvP. And if you don’t believe me, ask the PvPers who were here before it was implemented.

The limit adds a huge amount to PvP and fun, and takes only a tiny bit from vanilla (Really guys? Just having a map limit doesn’t mean we installed a shit-ton of plug-ins). And if we really want to get into a debate over what this server is about, let's talk about the name. Simplicity PvP. No mention of vanilla in there, and if 100% vanilla means becoming creative, absolutely not.

For some of us, Simplicity Creative (what it was like before the limit) turning into Simplicity PvP is a nightmare.
But to the rest of us, it's our dream.

Bump- for the benefit of the new guys to the topic

[FoSchnizzle]

whooh boy, I leave for a month and this is still an issue. *sigh* alright, let me say my idea with this.

I'll be frank, I despise the limit. For a multitude of reasons. I'll list three.

1. The limit DOES in fact limit what we can or cannot do. most of which it does so indirectly. We all know how server mechanics work, particularly with a pvp server such as this one. People who make houses on the surface and trust people too openly tend to get weeded out. especially if the limit is here. So let's say you're a new person. you go roaming around spawn, see a few crater houses, and you decide to group up with someone. because the limit is at 5k, you reach the base in a 3 day trip, and are greeted by a small room in the bowels of the Cubeworld. You prefer to make surface forts, something on par with a castle, and you know that even though making a surface structure is probably not the best idea, you know that if it's a good distance away, you'll be fine for a few weeks. maybe even a month, if you are secretive. Sadly, the limit prevents you from going a good distance away, and the limit would actually make it EASIER to find said castle. let me explain.

Imagine you're on a scouting mission, heading due west until you're close to the limit. now if we looked at a cardinal direction, you would have 5 directions to go. north, northeast, east, southeast, and south. you can't go the other three due to the limit. in other words, any bases near you have a better chance to be found because of this. if we didn't have a limit, we would have 8 directions, and we would have no enclosed area where people have to be. people would be harder to find because we wouldn't have much a clue onto where they are. In other words, the limit (and I understand it was designed to do this) actually encloses us two main ways. we can't go 5k from spawn, and we have a better chance of being discover because we're in an enclosed area. I know some people may like this, and I understand why they would, but isn't the thrill of pvp finding someone when you DIDN'T expect to find anyone? I'm not much a pvp person, but nothing makes me more happy then finding an old base. hell, it may be occupied!

2. The limit has changed pvp, but not in the best of ways. The thing is, I've noticed when I stayed here a month ago that pvp, at least to me, seemed to increase in size, yet lower in quality. Let me explain, and before anyone argues, this is pvp in the general form. I'm sure there are exceptions. I've noticed most pvp comes from someone in diamond/iron armor roaming around spawn looking for scraps getting attacked by spawn rats. Spawn rats are sadly not the type to go out and actually make a good fight. They don't even drop anything. And they just punch you and call you a faggot spawnkiller. I understand that this isn't the total of fights. I'll be generous and say this is roughly 75% of them. the other 25% can be someone actually finding someone well off (like youngs pointed out in his story), an event (which I'd say is exempt from saying "pvp has increased because of limit", as we don't need a limit in order to do this), and a set fight (which is sort of on the fence of "pvp increased because of limit", as more people are at spawn to do this, but those who do it would probably do it without a limit). Obviously the majority of the pvp isn't really sport, and even without the limit, I don't think the spawn rats would go away. That said, I'm sure the limit is exacerbating the issue.

3. The limit isn't on par with the "vanilla doctrine". Ok, stop. Right now. I know what you're going to say. "The server isn't vanilla, it's psuedo-vanilla." I know, I get it, the server is having an identity crisis. And the limit was really the mask for the server to wear. Realize this is less a "con" of the limit and more a personal opinion I have. Let me make this clear, this isn't my server, this isn't your server, this is yukar's server. in other words, whatever server he wants it to be, it will be. So he decided majority rule (read as slight majority rule). As I said before, the limit brought up a topic that we didn't want to bring up because it would literally tear the server apart. Let me explain. Again.

When I came to simplicity, it was what I would classify as a survival-vanilla-anarchy server. Survival meant we faced mobs at night, and had to get our own shit. Vanilla meant we would refrain from using mods that interfered with gameplay, and try to stick with what the game started out with. Anarchy meant that killing, stealing, and being an utter asshole was allowed, and admins were only used for police against hackers and other ne'er'do-wells. I love these kinds of server, mainly for their unpredictability. I love looking at the cultures people make with clans and town. I love the politics and the voracity of wars between groups. I love the ever present danger from the most unpredictable thing imaginable, MAN. I don't use it as my "personal singleplayer". (Although, I will admit, I do like putting time in my creations. That said, I prefer to be a more "noble" force. I found empires, I don't destroy them) I don't choose to use this as my creative map. I don't choose to stay here because I love reading what the trolls say (though they make it SO tempting). I DO (or, rather, did) play here because I felt that this server did something NO PLUG-IN could do, which was seem ALIVE. And to me, the limit was entirely AGAINST that. I know, if a server is at the brink of death (which I honestly didn't think it was, but apparently "I don't pvp, so I wouldn't understand"), we should tighten our belts, swallow our pride, and do things that we wouldn't normally do to get more people. But to me, the limit was too much. It was beyond too much. It changed the server into something unrecognizable. Actually, it WAS recognizable, but I saw it somewhere else.

Let me Explain (that seems to be my catch phrase...), I played on ANOTHER survival-vanilla-anarchy server prior to this one, and it did something similar. Certain pvp-centric players told the admin that the server was starting to become boring and dull, so we did something to add pvp. We added factions. I stayed, despite my hatred toward the mod, as I had many friends there. We had a vote (two weeks after the mod was already installed) and we won, or rather, didnt. The vote was clear, 24 against, 16 for. However, we had many false votes. One of the pro-factions players talked to the admin, who decided to keep the mod. I later found out he bribed him. And he did so plenty more times. A few bedrock bases. a few admin commands such as teleporting to someone. ADMINSHIP. I know this doesn't involve this server, but I want to make it clear that this topic scratches at old wounds for me. I loved this server. And I still wish to love it. I don't want it to go the same route as that server. I know it won't, or at least not entirely, as there are a few variables that are different. We have a good admin, unlike the one who listened to money rather then wisdom. We have a slightly better community (I'll be honest, reading this forum makes me remember the last thread for this. This is a disgrace, everyone who isn't already acting like adults, please do.). And we didn't add factions, but rather the next worst thing.

Anyhow, I hope that cleared a few things up, and realize this is more me putting my thoughts down and less coming up with arguments against the limit. I'll do so later, but in order to understand the topic at hand, we need to understand less what positions we hold, and more why we hold them. I'll admit the limit is something I'm more emotionally against then logically against. I know why it's there, I understand we voted it in (even though I voted against it, I realize this), and I know that it most likely will not be going anywhere. Especially with the topic being jackknifed by raw emotion and arrogance. I hope we can have a nice adult conversation with this, as this is a VERY serious issue, and not everyone will be happy with the decision we eventually make. Especially since we have the limit, and people will want it back now that they got a taste of it. Good night. And may Notch have mercy on our souls

For the much greater benefit of people new to this topic.

[YoungsMC]

As a member of this server since early 1.8
I can back up what piani is saying.
Before the limit there was little, if any PvP, but since the limit, it's picked up a lot.
Rev, piani's not lying, and please don't accuse him of doing so.

[pianiseemo]

Yay, we now have the two arguments side by side. Let the rest of the forum decide for themselves.

[FoSchnizzle]

Yes. Let people think for themselves. NOW STFU ;)